Mark Buehrle HOF Discussion

[chicagowhitesox1]

Mark Buehrle could have some serious Hall of Fame debates when he retires.

Players with higher WAR not in HOF.
1. Roger Clemens 139.4.....May take awhile to get in
2. Greg Maddux 104.6....might recieve highest votes ever
3. Randy Johnson 104.3...he might take a hit like Bagwell but will get in.
4. Pedro Martinez 86.0.....first ballot
5. Mike Mussina 82.7....He will get in easily
6. Curt chilling 80.7.....might be this era's Blylevin, he'll get in though
7. Jim McCormik 75.5....someday he'll get in. 19th century guys often get overlooked.
8. Tom Glavine 74.0....he'll get in
9. Kevin Brown 68.5....Steroids will keep him out
10. Rick Reuschel 68.2.....Hopefully Buehrle isn't classed with him.
11. John Smoltz 66.5....He'll get in easily
12. Luis Tiant 66.1.....I think eventualy he'll get in. His era hurts him a bit.
13. Roy Halladay 66.5......He will get in easily
14. Tommy John 62.3....He might get in but 26 seasons with no major accomplishments will likely keep him out for awhile.
15. Bobby Mathews 62.2....He should be in but he's another 19th century guy.
16. David Cone 61.7.....i'm torn on him but I doubt he gets in.
17. Tommy Bond 61.0.....19th century pitcher.
18. Charlie Buffington 60.6....19th century pitcher
19. Tony Mullane 60.2.....19th century pitcher
20. Bret Saberhagen 59.1.....he could have supporters someday. comparable to Billy Pierce.
21. Jack Quinn 59.0....He won't be getting in anytime soon, if ever.
22. Chuck Finley 58.5....I don't think he has a chance.
23. Andy Pettite 58.4.....steroids will haunt him.
24. Frank Tanana 57.5.....Good career but falls short.
25. Jerry Koosman 57.1....good pitcher but he won't get in.
26. Dave Stieb 57.0.....very underrated but he won't get in.
27. Eddie Cicotte 56.9...Blacksox scandel cost him a Hall of Fame career.
28. Jack Powell 56.0....he's just a forgotten player. Interesting player though.
29. Mariano Rivera 55.6.....Easy Hall of Famer
30. Tim Hudson 55.4......This injury may cost him.
31. Kevin Appier 55.1....He might have gotten motre attention if he pitched somewhere else.
32. Urban Shocker 54.8...played in New York, he's got a better chance than alot of guys for that reason.
33. Mark Buehrle 54.4..if he can somehow get 10.0 more WAR he will be in some pretty good company. He passed Sabathia last night and could possibly move past Hudson before the year ends
34. CC Sabathia 54.2....I think he's got a good chance if his arm idn't dead. He looks horrible this year.
......................................
Hall of Fame players with lower WAR.
Whitey Ford 53.9....hofer but Yankees easily made him look better.
Waite Hoyt 53.3.....Yankees made him a hofer.
Sandy Koufax 53.2....obviously he's better.....easily a hofer.
Al Spalding 52.2.....short career but very good career.
Early Wynn 51.6...300 game winner.....hofer but only because he won 300.
Hoyt Wilhelm 50.1.....easily the second best relief pitcher,,easy hofer
Burleigh Grimes 46.9....He's very borderline.
Addie Joss 45.9....Short career, Sandy Koufax type of career.
Herb Pennock 44.1....I'm surprised he got in so early but he's a decent hofer.
Chief Bender 44.0....had some good years, a little overrated but i'd say he deserves to be in.
Lefty Gomez 43.1....another Yankee pitcher but he's a decent hofer.
Dizzy Dean 42.7.....short career but his popularity makes him a strong choice.
Rich Gossage 41.8....I say no but he was better than Sutter and Fingers.
Jack Chesbro 41.2....I don't think he is. (Yankee pitcher)
Candy Cummings 38.5....Innovator, invented curveball.
Bob Lemon 37.5....surprised he had such a low career war. Very good pitcher from the 1950's.
Catfish Hunter 36.6....Teams he played for really helped his win total. Makes me wonder what Rick Reuschel would have done had he pitched for Oakland and New York in his prime.
Jesse Haines 35.7....Frankie Frich pick...Not a hofer
Rube Marquard 34.2...Frankie Frisch pick also.
Monte Ward 28.4....19th century guy. maybe the 10th best 19th century pitcher.
Rollie Fingers 25.0......I don't think he is compared to other closers. Sparky Lyle and Kent Tekulve were just as good.
Bruce Sutter 24.5....I think he's another horrible choice.
Babe Ruth 20.6.....pitching war. I always wonder what type of career he could of had as a pitcher. He was on his way to being a hofer pitcher.

[soxfanreggie]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

Mark Buehrle could have some serious Hall of Fame debates when he retires.
3. Randy Johnson 104.3...he might take a hit like Bagwell but will get in.


Babe Ruth 20.6.....pitching war. I always wonder what type of career he could of had as a pitcher. He was on his way to being a hofer pitcher.

Two things: 1.). Do you honestly think RJ won't get in first ballot? I'm not sure what you mean by the Bagwell thing for a guy with 5 Cy Young awards, 300+ wins, 2nd all-time in K's, and a ring. Add on a perfect game, a no-no, 10 AS appearances, WS MVP, and the highest K's per game for a starter.

For the Babe, he was on track to be a HOF pitcher, but he could have been a guy who pitched and then played the field in off days. Teams now would never let that happen, but I bet they would have done it then.

[chicagowhitesox1]

Originally Posted by soxfanreggie

Two things: 1.). Do you honestly think RJ won't get in first ballot? I'm not sure what you mean by the Bagwell thing for a guy with 5 Cy Young awards, 300+ wins, 2nd all-time in K's, and a ring. Add on a perfect game, a no-no, 10 AS appearances, WS MVP, and the highest K's per game for a starter.

For the Babe, he was on track to be a HOF pitcher, but he could have been a guy who pitched and then played the field in off days. Teams now would never let that happen, but I bet they would have done it then.

Randy Johnson will be a first ballot but he wont get the votes Maddux gets. There will be voters who penalize him. I don't want to get into a steroid debate though. The voters don't seem to care if there's hard core proof or not.

Regarding Ruth, I just wonder what type of career he would have had if he was purely a pitcher. Obviously they made the right choice in converting him to a hitter.

[Mr. Jinx]

The way I look at it, was there any time in Mark's career when you ever thought he was a top 5 or even top 10 pitcher in the league? Very good, very consistent pitcher for a long long time, but only Sox hall of fame worthy.

[chicagowhitesox1]

The saber stat guys are saying that 70.0 plus war is automatic for the Hall of Fame and I agree, i've always thought of Buehrle as a good pitcher nothing great but it's hard to ignore a career if he does reach 64 or 65.0 career war. More than likely if he does reach 65 war, he will be remembered like Rick Reucshel.

I made a mistake on Mark Buehrle's carer war too. He's at 54.1.

[SoxFanCPA]

No.

[chicagowhitesox1]

Hall of Fame pitchers within reach.

1. Stan Coveleski 65.2....strong hofer
2. Bob Feller 65.2...easy hofer, obviously would have been better if not for WWII. Feller did claim that the war probably saved his arm though.
3. Mickey Welch 63.8.....strong hofer
4. Ed Walsh 63.2......strong hofer
5. Dennis Eckersley 62.5.....gets alot of help from being a starter. still he's a good hof player.
6. Dazzy Vance 62.5......strong hofer
7. Juan Marichal 61.9......strong hofer
8. Don Drysdale 61.2...strong hofer
9. Rube Wadell 61.0......strong hofer
10. Joe McGinnity 60.4....some think he's a bit overrated but he's a strong hofer.
11. Hal Newhouser 60.4....gets picked on due to pitching in a watered down league during WWII but stats show the leagues really weren't watered down as some may think. Strong hofer
12. Clark Griffith 57.7....19th century guy
13. Eppa Rixey 56. 8.....he's a bit weak
14. Red Ruffing 55.4...another weak pick (Yankee pitcher.
.......................................
Mark Buehrle 54.1

Alot of these guys especially Marichal and Drysdale had great peaks and declined sharply or had thier careers cut short to various reasons. Mark Buehrle never had a great peak but he's at least stayed consistent. Maybe slow and steady will get him in.

[amsteel]

Absolutely.

Oh, you weren't talking about the St Charles, Missouri Hall of Fame? Then no.

Guys who played in the post steroid era are going to be held to a much higher standard than guys 40+ years ago.

[Mr. Jinx]

Originally Posted by amsteel

Absolutely.

Oh, you weren't talking about the St Charles, Missouri Hall of Fame? Then no.

Guys who played in the post steroid era are going to be held to a much higher standard than guys 40+ years ago.

Which is idiotic, but completely true.

[chicagowhitesox1]

....Mark Buehrle is one of the guys who I doubt anyone would suspect of using steroids and the fact he pitched well in the steroid era could help him get in even more.

....Mark Buehrle unlike Reuschel won a World Series Ring and won it with a team that hadn't won in close to 90 years. Could help him.

....His perfect game and no hitter will stand out.

....has always been known as a gold glove player. Might work in his favor.

....Writers have always liked Buehrle and this could be helpful too. Especially in 10 to 15 years down the road when voters will be younger and more saber stat heavy.

[Mr. Jinx]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

....Mark Buehrle is one of the guys who I doubt anyone would suspect of using steroids and the fact he pitched well in the steroid era could help him get in even more.

....Mark Buehrle unlike Reuschel won a World Series Ring and won it with a team that hadn't won in close to 90 years. Could help him.

....His perfect game and no hitter will stand out.

....has always been known as a gold glove player. Might work in his favor.

....Writers have always liked Buehrle and this could be helpful too. Especially in 10 to 15 years down the road when voters will be younger and more saber stat heavy.

1) Meaningless. Did you suspect Pablo Ozuna of using steroids? Did you suspect Fernando Vina? Andy Petite doesn't exactly scream user but he was too.

2) Also meaningless. They don't award hall votes for being a team with almost a century of futility.

3) Those definitely will. Very few have done that.

4) Probably doesn't mean a lot as it isn't really a "stat" that so many voters look for.

5) Was Mark really a big saber guy? He led the league in hits given up a few times. I'm not a saber guy myself but wouldn't that work against him?

[eastchicagosoxfan]

A HOF player should have a career and the stats that jump out at you. Buehrle's had neither. Buehrle can't even point to a monster season. Unfortunately, the various Veteran's Committees really brought in a lot of guys that watered down the HOF. Mark needs to have his career peak after the age of 35 to receive serious consideration. If he wants to take the Bert Blyleven route, he needs to win 100 more games. He's won 13 each of the last four seasons. He might win 13 this year.

[WLL1855]

Mark's a guy in the mold of Jaime Moyer. Solid player but unexceptional career. He could probably play into his 40's but won't want to.

No. He won't be inducted in the Hall.

[Railsplitter]

Originally Posted by soxfanreggie

Two things: 1.). Do you honestly think RJ won't get in first ballot? I'm not sure what you mean by the Bagwell thing for a guy with 5 Cy Young awards, 300+ wins, 2nd all-time in K's, and a ring. Add on a perfect game, a no-no, 10 AS appearances, WS MVP, and the highest K's per game for a starter.

For the Babe, he was on track to be a HOF pitcher, but he could have been a guy who pitched and then played the field in off days. Teams now would never let that happen, but I bet they would have done it then.

The Babe was playing in the outfield in 1918, but it was the WWI manpower shortage that contributed to that.

[Milw]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

....Mark Buehrle is one of the guys who I doubt anyone would suspect of using steroids and the fact he pitched well in the steroid era could help him get in even more.

....Mark Buehrle unlike Reuschel won a World Series Ring and won it with a team that hadn't won in close to 90 years. Could help him.

....His perfect game and no hitter will stand out.

....has always been known as a gold glove player. Might work in his favor.

....Writers have always liked Buehrle and this could be helpful too. Especially in 10 to 15 years down the road when voters will be younger and more saber stat heavy.

You're really grasping for straws. When a player isn't even a consensus HOFer among his own fanbase, he has no real chance.

Buehrle will go down as one of the great players in Sox history, and I imagine he will linger on the HOF ballot for several years, but no way in hell he gets in.