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  #151  
Old 12-12-2019, 01:35 PM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
I find it difficult to believe that if the White Sox had offered Wheeler a $160 million 6 year deal that he wouldn't be leading our team to the playoffs and beyond. That's also speculation, sure, but speculation that I am significantly more confident in.
Why do you find it difficult to believe that? Unless you were on Wheeler's negotiating team, your beliefs are meaningless since you do not know what discussions took place for their strategy. If he was bound an determined to play in a certain part of the country, no money in the world would have pulled him away. The contract he got from the Phillies sets not him up for life, but his children and their children are now set up for life. A 160M offer from another team outside the geographic area would not have really been a game changer.

By the way, ask Wayne Gretzky how credible it is that geography trumps money.
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  #152  
Old 12-12-2019, 01:54 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
You're welcome to this speculation, but that's all it is.

I find it difficult to believe that if the White Sox had offered Wheeler a $160 million 5 year deal that he wouldn't be leading our team to the playoffs and beyond. That's also speculation, sure, but speculation that I am significantly more confident in.

I also find it difficult to believe the organization is serious about our rebuild when they refuse to even engage in the best talent on the market when plan A failed.
You strike me as one of those dudes that had the Sox put their balls out like that, you immediately would be screaming in here on how dumb it is to have overpaid like that.
  #153  
Old 12-12-2019, 02:04 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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You strike me as one of those dudes that had the Sox put their balls out like that, you immediately would be screaming in here on how dumb it is to have overpaid like that.
You are 100 percent correct. It is a can't win situation for the Sox with some folks.

And it should really, really be glaringly obvious how ridiculous a number of people are being when hardcore fans are on here *defending* the front office in response!
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  #154  
Old 12-12-2019, 03:35 PM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
You strike me as one of those dudes that had the Sox put their balls out like that, you immediately would be screaming in here on how dumb it is to have overpaid like that.
Neh, I doubt that would have happened. For all of Munch's negativity, he was the one pushing hardest for Wheeler all along, saying that 5/$150 would have been a bargain. I'm sure if the Sox signed him he would have been cheering the move, regardless of the cost.

There is a certain segment of posters that get on the nerves of others because they live in a world of absolutes. If the Sox sign Wheeler, they're going to the playoffs. If they do anything else, they will be perpetually mediocre. There is only one good move, and it is the move that I think is best, because I know more than the people that do this for a living, and if they can't see this then they should be fired and replaced with people that share my vision.

In this case Hahn also thought that Wheeler was a good get, and he made him an offer accordingly. It didn't work out. **** happens, move on to the next plan.
  #155  
Old 12-12-2019, 04:20 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
At risk of incurring the wrath of the pitchfork crowd, I totally agree with this.

Let's face it, Wheeler likely never had any intention of signing with the Sox and was just negotiating with us to drive up his price to an East Coast team. I'm not faulting him for that, this is a business.

I wish there were some other FA pitcher that slotted nicely between the Cole/Strasburg stratosphere and the good, but flawed tier of Keuchel/Ryu/Bumg, but there isn't one.
It’s not the failure to sign Wheeler. It’s the lack of urgency to do something else to mitigate that failure.

The team’s own website quoted a payroll figure “somewhere around $120-130 million.” Sorry, but that simply is not enough resource allocation to qualify as an earnest attempt to compete.

This idea of not wanting to see money spent simply for the sake of spending it is flawed. Yes, at this point, spend it just to spend it. Spending it may actually provide something useful. Keeping it provides jack ****.

This idea of saving money for pitching makes no sense after the pitching is all gone. There is no mention of us being in on Bumgarner, and he is the last arm out there. Some do not even consider Bumgarner to be a good enough acquisition; their lists stopped at Wheeler. I would be fine with Bumgarner, but I think we would have heard something by now if we were pursuing him.
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  #156  
Old 12-12-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
It’s not the failure to sign Wheeler. It’s the lack of urgency to do something else to mitigate that failure.

The team’s own website quoted a payroll figure “somewhere around $120-130 million.” Sorry, but that simply is not enough resource allocation to qualify as an earnest attempt to compete.

This idea of not wanting to see money spent simply for the sake of spending it is flawed. Yes, at this point, spend it just to spend it. Spending it may actually provide something useful. Keeping it provides jack ****.

This idea of saving money for pitching makes no sense after the pitching is all gone. There is no mention of us being in on Bumgarner, and he is the last arm out there. Some do not even consider Bumgarner to be a good enough acquisition; their lists stopped at Wheeler. I would be fine with Bumgarner, but I think we would have heard something by now if we were pursuing him.
There have been many teams with payrolls approaching 200M that did not play in October.

Throwing money at the issue is not how you win. Getting talented players who have good chemistry on the field is how you win. Money cannot buy that. It is what we call an "intangible." Hard to apply a metric to it. This is why we still have to play the ballgames. We do not know the outcomes until the final out is made.
  #157  
Old 12-12-2019, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
There have been many teams with payrolls approaching 200M that did not play in October.

Throwing money at the issue is not how you win. Getting talented players who have good chemistry on the field is how you win. Money cannot buy that. It is what we call an "intangible." Hard to apply a metric to it. This is why we still have to play the ballgames. We do not know the outcomes until the final out is made.
There have been a whole lot more teams with payrolls well south of $200 million that were out of playoff contention by Memorial Day.

How are these “talented players” acquired without “throwing money at them?”
  #158  
Old 12-12-2019, 05:03 PM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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There have been a whole lot more teams with payrolls well south of $200 million that were out of playoff contention by Memorial Day.

How are these “talented players” acquired without “throwing money at them?”
Glad to see you agree that money is not the key to winning.
  #159  
Old 12-12-2019, 05:08 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
There have been many teams with payrolls approaching 200M that did not play in October.

Throwing money at the issue is not how you win. Getting talented players who have good chemistry on the field is how you win. Money cannot buy that. It is what we call an "intangible." Hard to apply a metric to it. This is why we still have to play the ballgames. We do not know the outcomes until the final out is made.
I love the internet. Here are annual opening day payrolls. Let's just look at the 2010s WS participants by payroll rank.

2010: 10 v 27
2011: 11 v 13
2012: 5 v 8
2013: 4 v 10
2014: 7 v 19
2015: 16 v 21
2016: 14 v 24
2017: 1 v 18
2018: 1 v 3
2019: 7 v 8

Interesting!
  #160  
Old 12-12-2019, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
I love the internet. Here are annual opening day payrolls. Let's just look at the 2010s WS participants by payroll rank.

2010: 10 v 27
2011: 11 v 13
2012: 5 v 8
2013: 4 v 10
2014: 7 v 19
2015: 16 v 21
2016: 14 v 24
2017: 1 v 18
2018: 1 v 3
2019: 7 v 8

Interesting!
Show me the Money! I guess the more a team spends, the more free time in October its players have to watch NFL.
  #161  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:19 PM
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And now this thread is closed too.

Someone feel free to start a new thread about trades and FA signings that will hopefully NOT devolve down the same rabbit hole the others have.
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