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  #31  
Old 04-24-2018, 04:32 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by TomC727 View Post
I mentioned this in a previous post and Iíll say it again. What the Astros have done is even more impressive than the north side team and other rebuilt teams is that the Astros missed on the first pick in back to back drafts in 2013 and 2014 (Mark Appel and Brady Aiken).

White Sox fans would be out with pitchforks if this happened to this organization.
Aiken? they more than made for it with Kyle Tucker the next year (and Bregman at #1). It was actually pretty savvy - it was a weak draft so take the pick the next draft.

The other thing about the Sox is that their 2-40 round picks, in general, don't do much either.
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  #32  
Old 04-24-2018, 04:41 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is online now
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
Was Anderson really that bad of a pick? It's not like he's a total bust and I think he's still got time to improve. If you look at the 2013 first round picks, there's a whole lot of nothing between Bryant at #2 and Judge at #32. The Sox took Anderson at #17.

Burdi is recovering from TJS. There's a high recovery rate from that type of surgery, so no reason to write him off or to declare him a bad pick. I'm not writing off Burger yet, either.

Rodon? Well, we'll all find out soon enough how he bounces back.

The Fulmer pick doesn't look that great right now, especially considering the guys across town took Happ in the very next pick. But, let's see how Fulmer does this year. I agree that Collins does look alarmingly bad in the minors right now.
I think, (not trying to speak for JB) but Anderson continues to be wildly inconsistent. He's spent over a year and a half in the bigs now. One night he looks great, the next night he can't catch anything and is getting picked off base or making a mental mistake. He's got talent, the question is will he get it consistently harnessed and be productive? If the Sox were to draft a middle infielder with that high pick this June, that could be a sign of what could come down the road.

Burdi (much like Hansen now and Rodon last year) is a "mystery man." Little to no information coming from the Sox on him. I think it's been about a year since his surgery so he should be throwing some by now. To the best of my knowledge the Sox are being tight lipped (no pun intended) so who knows if there has been complications or what.

Rodon is made of glass, Fulmer is badly inconsistent although he gets a pass for now in my opinion because of his inexperience. Collins is struggling badly. Burger is hurt and there were some who questioned his ability in the field because of his size and athleticism (although to be fair much the same was said about Jim Thome and he played an acceptable third base for years).

But I think the biggest issue with a lot of fans, revised draft rules or not, is the track record of this organization in drafting, signing and most importantly developing talent.

Remember many (not all) of the same folks who put the team in the hole are still around trying to fix what they broke.

Skepticism is natural in my opinion under those circumstances.

We'll see how it all plays out but needless to say there is a lot on the line if it doesn't. Including, maybe, their jobs (although honestly I doubt JR would pull the trigger on them even if it all blew up)

Like I said, we'll see.
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  #33  
Old 04-24-2018, 05:31 PM
shes shes is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Aiken? they more than made for it with Kyle Tucker the next year (and Bregman at #1). It was actually pretty savvy - it was a weak draft so take the pick the next draft.

The other thing about the Sox is that their 2-40 round picks, in general, don't do much either.
And let's not forget they were fortunate enought to have the first pick in a draft with a can't miss once in a decade player (Correa). You get one of those and it's easy to get past whiffing on a couple others.
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  #34  
Old 04-24-2018, 06:21 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
No one is saying that having a bad, current, team means you'll have a good, future, team. They're showing that teams were able to rebuild in fairly short order through a combination of drafting, free agency, and acquiring prospects via trade.
In addition to the jettison of the one or two stars that could not get you to the promised land you also have to jettison the scouts, management and coaches that helped you reach rock bottom.
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  #35  
Old 04-24-2018, 10:06 PM
whitesoxfan1986 whitesoxfan1986 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
I think, (not trying to speak for JB) but Anderson continues to be wildly inconsistent. He's spent over a year and a half in the bigs now. One night he looks great, the next night he can't catch anything and is getting picked off base or making a mental mistake. He's got talent, the question is will he get it consistently harnessed and be productive? If the Sox were to draft a middle infielder with that high pick this June, that could be a sign of what could come down the road.

Burdi (much like Hansen now and Rodon last year) is a "mystery man." Little to no information coming from the Sox on him. I think it's been about a year since his surgery so he should be throwing some by now. To the best of my knowledge the Sox are being tight lipped (no pun intended) so who knows if there has been complications or what.

Rodon is made of glass, Fulmer is badly inconsistent although he gets a pass for now in my opinion because of his inexperience. Collins is struggling badly. Burger is hurt and there were some who questioned his ability in the field because of his size and athleticism (although to be fair much the same was said about Jim Thome and he played an acceptable third base for years).

But I think the biggest issue with a lot of fans, revised draft rules or not, is the track record of this organization in drafting, signing and most importantly developing talent.

Remember many (not all) of the same folks who put the team in the hole are still around trying to fix what they broke.

Skepticism is natural in my opinion under those circumstances.

We'll see how it all plays out but needless to say there is a lot on the line if it doesn't. Including, maybe, their jobs (although honestly I doubt JR would pull the trigger on them even if it all blew up)

Like I said, we'll see.
The Sox have a 20 year track record of complete and epic failure at drafting. Let's look at the following 1st round picks since 1999:
1999: Jason Stumm(15) Matt Ginter(22) Brian West(35) Rob Purvis(45)
2000: Joe Borchard(12)
2001: Kris Honel(16) Wyatt Allen(39)
2002: Royce Ring(18)
2003: Brian Anderson(15)
2004: Josh Fields(18) Tyler Lumsden(34) Gio Gonzalez(38) a blind squirrel finds a nut
2005:Lance Broadway(15)
2006: Kyle McCulloch (29)
2007: Aaron Poreda(25)
2008: Gordon Beckham(8)
2009: Jared Mitchell(23)
2010: Chris Sale(13) blind squirrel finds a very large nut
2011: No 1st rounder, Keenyn Walker first pick by Sox in draft
2012: Courtney Hawkins(12) Keon Barnum(48)
2013: Tim Anderson(17)
2014: Carlos Rodon(3)
2015: Carson Fulmer(8)
2016: Zack Collins(10) Zack Burdi(26)
2017: Jake Burger(11)

All I can say is that you really have to try to be that bad at your job. This is why I'm more positive about prospects they've received via trade than anyone they took in the draft.
EDIT: I went back further and the only decent player drafted in the 1st round through any point of the 90s by the Sox that spent any significant time with them was Rowand. the last years they had consecutive hits on 1st rounders was 1987-90 when they drafted the core of the early 90s team: McDowell, Ventura, Thomas and Fernandez. They are going on 29 years of epic failure with high picks. Garland and Konerko were acquired through trades.

Last edited by whitesoxfan1986; 04-24-2018 at 10:23 PM.
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  #36  
Old 04-24-2018, 10:18 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by whitesoxfan1986 View Post
All I can say is that you really have to try to be that bad at your job. This is why I'm more positive about prospects they've received via trade than anyone they took in the draft.
Those draft were bad mostly because the owner of the team refused to pay draftees what they were demanding behind the scenes. While other teams (Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers) were finding loopholes and cheating like crazy, the JR stubbornly kept to his guns.

If the current rules were in place from 1999- 2012 you would have seen a drastically different set of first round picks.
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  #37  
Old 04-24-2018, 10:31 PM
whitesoxfan1986 whitesoxfan1986 is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Those draft were bad mostly because the owner of the team refused to pay draftees what they were demanding behind the scenes. While other teams (Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers) were finding loopholes and cheating like crazy, the JR stubbornly kept to his guns.

If the current rules were in place from 1999- 2012 you would have seen a drastically different set of first round picks.
I've been a fan since 1993. Been old enough to understand what was actually happening since 2001. Yeah, I know Uncle Jerry was cheap with the draft picks, but still it hasn't become much better over the last few years. We have some sort of hope with guys like Anderson, Rodon, Fulmer, Collins, Burdi and Burger, but half of them have already had significant injuries. We don't know what we have there with any of them yet. Honestly, out of this group, I think that Anderson has the best shot to have a productive career out of those with any sort of track record. Burdi and Burger got hurt too early in their minor league careers to have any sort of decent track record so the jury is out on those guys, and we'll have to wait until 2019(at least) to know anything about either of them. I think Rodon probably won't figure it out until his walk year, and that is if his stuff returns after the shoulder surgery. Fulmer is a wild card and Collins needs to hit .250 with 30 bombs at the major league level if he can't stick at catcher. I don't know if he's capable of that.
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  #38  
Old 04-24-2018, 10:39 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is online now
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Just a mention to Hitman from an earlier post discussing draft picks and how they are doing. I mentioned Anderson being inconsistent, looking great one day than making a baseball-stupid play the next.

Perfect example again today. Get's picked off second base (not first mind you) in a game that ends 1-0. Badly hurt just about the only real chance the Sox had today.

How many times just this year has he been picked off? At least two that I know off.

Very frustrating with him.
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  #39  
Old 04-24-2018, 10:45 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by whitesoxfan1986 View Post

All I can say is that you really have to try to be that bad at your job. This is why I'm more positive about prospects they've received via trade than anyone they took in the draft.
Indeed, but they really don't have enough of them to field a championship team (even if all of the top prospects blossom). And to keep it going beyond a few years, they have to draft well. they knowingly draft players in high rounds with swing hitches, herky deliveries.
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  #40  
Old 04-24-2018, 10:47 PM
whitesoxfan1986 whitesoxfan1986 is offline
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Indeed, but they really don't have enough of them to field a championship team (even if all of the top prospects blossom). And to keep it going beyond a few years, they have to draft well.
It is really interesting that they traded the two guys they hit on as well. Gonzalez was traded twice before his ML debut and Sale had to be traded because they really had nothing on the big club other than him, Quintana and Eaton. I find it funny that Sale is the one still performing the best, given he had many questions about his health and effectiveness long-term. It seems that the Sox hit the jackpot on trading Eaton and Quintana at their peaks, though if Giolito busts the Eaton trade doesn't look nearly as good.
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  #41  
Old 04-24-2018, 11:37 PM
MtGrnwdSoxFan MtGrnwdSoxFan is offline
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Originally Posted by whitesoxfan1986 View Post
It is really interesting that they traded the two guys they hit on as well. Gonzalez was traded twice before his ML debut and Sale had to be traded because they really had nothing on the big club other than him, Quintana and Eaton. I find it funny that Sale is the one still performing the best, given he had many questions about his health and effectiveness long-term. It seems that the Sox hit the jackpot on trading Eaton and Quintana at their peaks, though if Giolito busts the Eaton trade doesn't look nearly as good.
You're not wrong, but if Lopez keeps looking like he has this season, I'd still consider it a win of a trade even if Giolito does bust.
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  #42  
Old 04-25-2018, 12:06 AM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by whitesoxfan1986 View Post
It is really interesting that they traded the two guys they hit on as well. Gonzalez was traded twice before his ML debut and Sale had to be traded because they really had nothing on the big club other than him, Quintana and Eaton. I find it funny that Sale is the one still performing the best, given he had many questions about his health and effectiveness long-term. It seems that the Sox hit the jackpot on trading Eaton and Quintana at their peaks, though if Giolito busts the Eaton trade doesn't look nearly as good.
Health is a crapshoot. Sale or Kopech could go down tomorrow, and that would totally change the calculus for that trade. The Nats already lost Eaton for a season in which they hoped to win it all.

The best way to protect yourself from injuries and growing pains is a deep farm system. Nobody cares if Giolito goes bust, if Hansen and Cease turn into TOR starters.
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  #43  
Old 04-25-2018, 04:08 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Just a mention to Hitman from an earlier post discussing draft picks and how they are doing. I mentioned Anderson being inconsistent, looking great one day than making a baseball-stupid play the next.

Perfect example again today. Get's picked off second base (not first mind you) in a game that ends 1-0. Badly hurt just about the only real chance the Sox had today.

How many times just this year has he been picked off? At least two that I know off.

Very frustrating with him.
Anderson likely scores on a base hit. Its Renteria's job to communicate to Anderson that you do not take risks in a one-naught game.
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  #44  
Old 04-25-2018, 07:34 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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It’s been so long since the Sox have been growing their own position players, that I think some fans don’t understand the normal development timeline.

I remember similar fan impatience with struggles by Rowand and Crede.

Frank Thomas - he of the “major league ready bat” on draft day - had more minor league plate appearances than Collins has had through today.

Robin Ventura had what, an 0-for-41 start to 1990?

Konerko didn’t come over and dominate right away.

Plenty of fans were happy to get rid of Mike Cameron because he didn’t dominate right away, either, and they thought he was a bust, too.

I want badly for this rebuild to work. But I always expected that the Sox would suck this year. I even expect that .500 ball is wishcasting at best in 2019, too.
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  #45  
Old 04-25-2018, 08:23 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is online now
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Itís been so long since the Sox have been growing their own position players, that I think some fans donít understand the normal development timeline.

I remember similar fan impatience with struggles by Rowand and Crede.

Frank Thomas - he of the ďmajor league ready batĒ on draft day - had more minor league plate appearances than Collins has had through today.

Robin Ventura had what, an 0-for-41 start to 1990?

Konerko didnít come over and dominate right away.

Plenty of fans were happy to get rid of Mike Cameron because he didnít dominate right away, either, and they thought he was a bust, too.

I want badly for this rebuild to work. But I always expected that the Sox would suck this year. I even expect that .500 ball is wishcasting at best in 2019, too.
Well said. It's rare for a player to soar through the farm system and then take off running at the majors like Kris Bryant. All any of us can really say about the post-2012 draft picks is that the jury is still out on almost all of them. Too early to call them a success and too early to call them a bust.

Also, not every pick is going to be an all-star or a bust, either. Things are just not that black and white.
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