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  #76  
Old 02-23-2017, 07:24 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by MarksBrokenFoot View Post
That's ridiculous. Stockpiling talent in the minors is the antithesis of Williams tenure. He's always blown away prospects on garbage vets. You can say trying to lose is a bad idea, but you cannot claim that it's par for the course with this front office. This is completely uncharted territory.

Aside from that, Avi playing 162 games doesn't hurt anybody. There is no minor league outfielder he's blocking. Nobody is ready to come up. We're going to suck, that's just a fact. Avi is exactly the kind of player you want on this team for a terrible season. He either figures it out and becomes a piece of the future, or he flames out once and for all. Take a look at Alex Gordon's career sometime and tell me how smart it is to fold on a guy who's 25 and talented. If you aren't ready to win, you buy all the lottery tickets you can.
You don't stockpile talent, you teach it, play it and let it grow.

BTW, Williams runs nothing right now. It's Hahn's show.

Finally, lets clear this matter up: Alex Gordon and Avi are not, and never have been, in the same talent universe.
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  #77  
Old 02-23-2017, 07:26 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
"Young Alex Gordon" was superior defensively to what "young Avi Garcia" is defensively. I know it's a corner outfield spot, but that difference cannot be ignored.
Faster, better base runner, better arm, better approach to the game fitness wise, etc.

Last edited by Grzegorz; 02-23-2017 at 07:42 PM.
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  #78  
Old 02-24-2017, 09:46 AM
Flight #24 Flight #24 is offline
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Originally Posted by MarksBrokenFoot View Post
That's ridiculous. Stockpiling talent in the minors is the antithesis of Williams tenure. He's always blown away prospects on garbage vets. You can say trying to lose is a bad idea, but you cannot claim that it's par for the course with this front office. This is completely uncharted territory.
While I don't disagree, it's a fact that none of the guys KW traded really ever amounted to much. Gio Gonzalez years later and maybe a year or 2 of Chris Young but it's been pretty much meh.

Which is the real failing of the KW regime. Hopeful Hahn can turn that around.
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  #79  
Old 02-24-2017, 11:01 AM
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Chez Chez is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Avi is a penny stock in a company that makes an easy fat loss remedy. The stock is cheap because the product doesn't work.

Here's a question: Who was/is a better player, Avi Garcia or Dayan Viciedo? Both were heralded as "can't (or shouldn't) miss."
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  #80  
Old 02-24-2017, 11:29 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Here's a question: Who was/is a better player, Avi Garcia or Dayan Viciedo? Both were heralded as "can't (or shouldn't) miss."
Close call, but Avi.
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  #81  
Old 02-24-2017, 11:46 AM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Here's a question: Who was/is a better player, Avi Garcia or Dayan Viciedo? Both were heralded as "can't (or shouldn't) miss."
(c) None of the above?
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  #82  
Old 02-24-2017, 12:02 PM
MarksBrokenFoot MarksBrokenFoot is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
You don't stockpile talent, you teach it, play it and let it grow.

BTW, Williams runs nothing right now. It's Hahn's show.

Finally, lets clear this matter up: Alex Gordon and Avi are not, and never have been, in the same talent universe.
YOU compared things to the last 10 years. Those were WILLIAMS years. I'm using the (inaccurate) comparison you started.

And you're really just wrong about talent. You can't teach it or play it or let it grow if you don't first HAVE it.

Lastly, I believe if we were having this conversation at the start of Alex Gordon's career, you'd also be telling us how talentless Alex was. Plenty of hitters mature late. If you're waiting for the guy who comes up and is instantly awesome, you're going to throw away some keepers. I'm not even saying Avi is a good bet. I'd put it at 10% that he comes around. Why not see, since if you bring up Engel or May, you're going to give up on them, too?
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  #83  
Old 02-24-2017, 12:18 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Here's a question: Who was/is a better player, Avi Garcia or Dayan Viciedo? Both were heralded as "can't (or shouldn't) miss."
Dayan Viciedo? He most definitely was not labeled as "can't miss". Coming out of Cuba he was pretty much an afterthought for most teams. The Sox were seen as taking minor risk with him.
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  #84  
Old 02-24-2017, 01:00 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by MarksBrokenFoot View Post
YOU compared things to the last 10 years. Those were WILLIAMS years. I'm using the (inaccurate) comparison you started.

And you're really just wrong about talent. You can't teach it or play it or let it grow if you don't first HAVE it.

Lastly, I believe if we were having this conversation at the start of Alex Gordon's career, you'd also be telling us how talentless Alex was. Plenty of hitters mature late. If you're waiting for the guy who comes up and is instantly awesome, you're going to throw away some keepers. I'm not even saying Avi is a good bet. I'd put it at 10% that he comes around. Why not see, since if you bring up Engel or May, you're going to give up on them, too?
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  #85  
Old 02-24-2017, 02:03 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by MarksBrokenFoot View Post
I believe if we were having this conversation at the start of Alex Gordon's career, you'd also be telling us how talentless Alex was. Plenty of hitters mature late. If you're waiting for the guy who comes up and is instantly awesome, you're going to throw away some keepers. I'm not even saying Avi is a good bet. I'd put it at 10% that he comes around. Why not see, since if you bring up Engel or May, you're going to give up on them, too?
Alex Gordon came up at the age of 23 after playing one season at AA, where he had posted a 1.016 OPS. His OPS in his first major league season was .725.

Avi got a cup of coffee at 21 and played half a season in the majors at 22. In the minor-league half of his age-22 season, he posted a .991 OPS. And in 172 ABs with Chicago at age 23, his OPS was .718.

At that point in their careers, their bats looked very comparable, and you wouldn't say either one was struggling. (MarksBrokenFoot, you certainly wouldn't have called Gordon "talentless".)

But Avi's age-23 season was halted by injury, and he has been bad ever since. His healthy age-24 and age-25 seasons resulted in only .675 and .692 OPS.

At 24, Gordon beat Avi by 100+ points of OPS (.783) before he had two injury-tarnished seasons in a row. Healthy again at 27, Gordon put up his career-high OPS of .879.

I don't think you can blame Avi's performance on his injury, because he's had two healthy seasons since. A .700 OPS player who doesn't contribute on the bases or defensively is who he is.
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  #86  
Old 02-24-2017, 02:23 PM
KingXerxes KingXerxes is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Alex Gordon came up at the age of 23 after playing one season at AA, where he had posted a 1.016 OPS. His OPS in his first major league season was .725.

Avi got a cup of coffee at 21 and played half a season in the majors at 22. In the minor-league half of his age-22 season, he posted a .991 OPS. And in 172 ABs with Chicago at age 23, his OPS was .718.

At that point in their careers, their bats looked very comparable, and you wouldn't say either one was struggling. (MarksBrokenFoot, you certainly wouldn't have called Gordon "talentless".)

But Avi's age-23 season was halted by injury, and he has been bad ever since. His healthy age-24 and age-25 seasons resulted in only .675 and .692 OPS.

At 24, Gordon beat Avi by 100+ points of OPS (.783) before he had two injury-tarnished seasons in a row. Healthy again at 27, Gordon put up his career-high OPS of .879.

I don't think you can blame Avi's performance on his injury, because he's had two healthy seasons since. A .700 OPS player who doesn't contribute on the bases or defensively is who he is.


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  #87  
Old 02-24-2017, 04:02 PM
MarksBrokenFoot MarksBrokenFoot is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Alex Gordon came up at the age of 23 after playing one season at AA, where he had posted a 1.016 OPS. His OPS in his first major league season was .725.

Avi got a cup of coffee at 21 and played half a season in the majors at 22. In the minor-league half of his age-22 season, he posted a .991 OPS. And in 172 ABs with Chicago at age 23, his OPS was .718.

At that point in their careers, their bats looked very comparable, and you wouldn't say either one was struggling. (MarksBrokenFoot, you certainly wouldn't have called Gordon "talentless".)

But Avi's age-23 season was halted by injury, and he has been bad ever since. His healthy age-24 and age-25 seasons resulted in only .675 and .692 OPS.

At 24, Gordon beat Avi by 100+ points of OPS (.783) before he had two injury-tarnished seasons in a row. Healthy again at 27, Gordon put up his career-high OPS of .879.

I don't think you can blame Avi's performance on his injury, because he's had two healthy seasons since. A .700 OPS player who doesn't contribute on the bases or defensively is who he is.
You're probably right. But in the context of a lost year, there is no downside. His value starts at 0 and can only improve. If he posts another .700 OPS, so what? If he goes 0 for 600, so what? It's not like Engel or May is beating down the door and he's standing in the way. They aren't ready.
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  #88  
Old 02-24-2017, 04:05 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Alex Gordon came up at the age of 23 after playing one season at AA, where he had posted a 1.016 OPS. His OPS in his first major league season was .725.

Avi got a cup of coffee at 21 and played half a season in the majors at 22. In the minor-league half of his age-22 season, he posted a .991 OPS. And in 172 ABs with Chicago at age 23, his OPS was .718.

At that point in their careers, their bats looked very comparable, and you wouldn't say either one was struggling. (MarksBrokenFoot, you certainly wouldn't have called Gordon "talentless".)

But Avi's age-23 season was halted by injury, and he has been bad ever since. His healthy age-24 and age-25 seasons resulted in only .675 and .692 OPS.

At 24, Gordon beat Avi by 100+ points of OPS (.783) before he had two injury-tarnished seasons in a row. Healthy again at 27, Gordon put up his career-high OPS of .879.

I don't think you can blame Avi's performance on his injury, because he's had two healthy seasons since. A .700 OPS player who doesn't contribute on the bases or defensively is who he is.
The point of the comparison was that at age 25 neither of them had/has lived up to their potential and sometimes it takes longer for a guy to get it together... as it did with Gordon... as it might with Garcia. You never know.
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  #89  
Old 02-24-2017, 04:19 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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The point of the comparison was that at age 25 neither of them had/has lived up to their potential and sometimes it takes longer for a guy to get it together... as it did with Gordon... as it might with Garcia. You never know.
Except that it didn't really take Gordon a long time to live up to his potential. He was drafted out of college, had one phenomenal year in the minors, and hit well enough his first year in the majors to play full time. He hit a bit better his second year. Then he had some injuries, costing him what would've probably been two strong seasons.

Avi started in the minors at 17 and climbed the ladder slowly. When he got his first real shot in the majors, he did fine, then got hurt. Then he got healthy, had two chances to break out and flopped.

I don't think it's a great comparison. You can find players who took a long time to put it together, but those people have rarely had the opportunities handed to Avi. And most of the players who took a long time to put it together never did.
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  #90  
Old 02-24-2017, 05:26 PM
MarksBrokenFoot MarksBrokenFoot is offline
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Except that it didn't really take Gordon a long time to live up to his potential. He was drafted out of college, had one phenomenal year in the minors, and hit well enough his first year in the majors to play full time. He hit a bit better his second year. Then he had some injuries, costing him what would've probably been two strong seasons.

Avi started in the minors at 17 and climbed the ladder slowly. When he got his first real shot in the majors, he did fine, then got hurt. Then he got healthy, had two chances to break out and flopped.

I don't think it's a great comparison. You can find players who took a long time to put it together, but those people have rarely had the opportunities handed to Avi. And most of the players who took a long time to put it together never did.
I'm pretty sure Gordon only missed half a month in 2010 to injury. He was just flat out demoted. He wasn't hitting and he wasn't a good defender. They sent him back down to switch his position. That .671 OPS was all him in his early glory.
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