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  #16  
Old 02-19-2020, 11:16 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post

My bigger concern is what happens when the production isn't there. Is he going to have an issue when Vaughn is ready to take over and he is in a bench role? I don't want to see him getting the PK treatment (and Konerko was my fav player) where he gets 750 just useless ABs to finish his career because his career earned it. We will be in a championship window.
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I think the Sox expectation for Vaughn would be he comes up in 2021 and I bet at that point, Abreu is not blocking him. They might wind up splitting sometime between DH and first, but it's not like Vaughn will be riding the bench in favor of Abreu.

The comparison between Abreu and Konerko is interesting because starting in 2010, Konerko started spending less time at first base. Now there wasn't really an heir-apparent like there is now, but someone like Dunn and even Kotsay could start a fair number of games at first where Thome couldn't and Konerko said that rest helped him a lot in bounce-back from 2010 through the first half of 2012. I'm really curious to see if Abreu would benefit at all from having some days off in the field this year.
Good question. Agreed that I don't see Abreu blocking Vaughn since they both could cover 1B/DH when Vaughn is ready (perhaps starting next year). Perhaps he ends up blocking Collins or Sheets, but neither of those guys are a sure thing yet.

I'd imagine the biggest potential issue is with the 2022 season if his performance drops off and presumably the Sox are in prime contention window.
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  #17  
Old 02-19-2020, 11:24 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
Good question. Agreed that I don't see Abreu blocking Vaughn since they both could cover 1B/DH when Vaughn is ready (perhaps starting next year). Perhaps he ends up blocking Collins or Sheets, but neither of those guys are a sure thing yet.

I'd imagine the biggest potential issue is with the 2022 season if his performance drops off and presumably the Sox are in prime contention window.
I won't lie, I personally have a feeling both Sheets and Collins are just never going to be any kind of useful in the bigs. So I am not worried at all about them.
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  #18  
Old 02-19-2020, 11:30 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
If this level of contract was proposed to him back then? Absolutely.

The market for 1B/DH/LF types dried up something fierce last offseason. It wasn’t much better this offseason.

Even a guy like Nick Castellanos, who:

1) Proved that the smack he was talking about Comerica tanking his overall numbers was completely justified

2) Has posted an OPS+ above 120 the past 4 years despite playing all but 2 of those 24 months in that numbers-depressing stadium

3) Is 5 years younger than Abreu

only secured 4/$64 with NO QO attached. Abreu got 3/$50 at age 33 WITH a QO attached.

Let’s just say that there was a reason other than just good ol’ warm fuzzies that he took the QO. He likely would have ended up near that amount anyway, and he would have entered free agency a year older at 34, albeit with no QO.
We can't have it both ways. We can't both accuse the Sox of not taking care of their players and of being too generous with their veterans. Sure there's a perfect middle ground from a numbers perspective, but the real world is rarely perfect and sometimes the goodwill you engender by slightly overpaying a productive veteran who has been the consummate team player and professional all through his tenure is worth more than the extra few million per season that toes the financial/WAR$ perfection line.

I'm okay with that.
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  #19  
Old 02-19-2020, 11:40 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
2) Has posted an OPS+ above 120 the past 4 years despite playing all but 2 of those 24 months in that numbers-depressing stadium
Nit-pick, but Castellanos was not above 120 in 2017 (112).

I'm not sure what the concern over re-signing Abreu is. It's a short term deal for not a lot of money and hedges the White Sox against a Vaughn set-back.

Abreu is a 2- 3 WAR player. The average $ paid per 1 WAR is around 8.6 million, seems like a fair deal. As shown by many studies the average player fall off from 33 to 36 is not overly dramatic. Age 36 is when most players tend to experience the big drop offs, so there is a decent chance that Abreu will still be a 2 WAR player at age 35.
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  #20  
Old 02-19-2020, 02:46 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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I won't lie, I personally have a feeling both Sheets and Collins are just never going to be any kind of useful in the bigs. So I am not worried at all about them.
Yeah, they aren't players that you exactly pencil into your lineup like you might with someone like Vaughn. Sheets did have a fine season last year with an improvement in power - especially playing home games in a pitcher's park. It'll be interesting to see how he does at Charlotte this year. If he does great, then great....that'll be a nice problem to have.

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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Nit-pick, but Castellanos was not above 120 in 2017 (112).

I'm not sure what the concern over re-signing Abreu is. It's a short term deal for not a lot of money and hedges the White Sox against a Vaughn set-back.

Abreu is a 2- 3 WAR player. The average $ paid per 1 WAR is around 8.6 million, seems like a fair deal. As shown by many studies the average player fall off from 33 to 36 is not overly dramatic. Age 36 is when most players tend to experience the big drop offs, so there is a decent chance that Abreu will still be a 2 WAR player at age 35.
Looking at Konerko's stats as one example, he was pretty productive at age 35 (2.9 WAR) and even age 36 (1.9 WAR) before he really tailed off after that. Of course, as they say, your mileage may vary.
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  #21  
Old 02-19-2020, 02:46 PM
KRS1 KRS1 is offline
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Hey, another thread puked all over where I have to dig to find actual news as related to the title. ****.
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  #22  
Old 02-19-2020, 02:48 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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PK also had that hip condition that really slowed him down.
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  #23  
Old 02-19-2020, 02:52 PM
Maximo Maximo is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
It seems clear that the Sox decided to pay Abreu for more than his on-field contributions. He's the clubhouse leader, especially among the Hispanic players (which last I checked, compromises most of the "core" position players). It also cements the Sox as the #1 destination for Cuban players, which has already paid off with one international signing and will likely continue to do so for the next few years.

If Moncada ends up signing an extension (Hahn hinted at this possibility in the past week), I'm sure he will reference the Sox loyalty to Abreu as a factor.
Ditto
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  #24  
Old 02-19-2020, 04:15 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
Yeah, they aren't players that you exactly pencil into your lineup like you might with someone like Vaughn. Sheets did have a fine season last year with an improvement in power - especially playing home games in a pitcher's park. It'll be interesting to see how he does at Charlotte this year. If he does great, then great....that'll be a nice problem to have.



Looking at Konerko's stats as one example, he was pretty productive at age 35 (2.9 WAR) and even age 36 (1.9 WAR) before he really tailed off after that. Of course, as they say, your mileage may vary.
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
PK also had that hip condition that really slowed him down.
My hope with Sheets is that he can produce enough in Charlotte that other teams would be intrigued enough with him and some other prospects that they could be flipped for help on the major league roster.

For Konerko, I feel like WAR doesn't do him justice. He had an OPS+ of 160, 141 and 130 for his age 34-36 seasons. Yea, he didn't have a lot of range but he had soft hands and was really good at picking balls out of the dirt, which REALLY helped with some of Alexei's throws. Konerko's downfall was at some point in the second half of 2012 when he hurt his wrist and never really recovered from that.
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  #25  
Old 02-19-2020, 04:57 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
We can't have it both ways. We can't both accuse the Sox of not taking care of their players and of being too generous with their veterans. Sure there's a perfect middle ground from a numbers perspective, but the real world is rarely perfect and sometimes the goodwill you engender by slightly overpaying a productive veteran who has been the consummate team player and professional all through his tenure is worth more than the extra few million per season that toes the financial/WAR$ perfection line.

I'm okay with that.
Again, it’s not the dollars. It’s the years. Teams don’t frivolously guarantee bat-only players their age-34 and age-35 seasons in this day and age, especially when the bat-only player isn’t that special with the bat.

Guaranteeing those mid-30s seasons is reserved for elite free agents, and with the expectation that the production could nosedive in any of those years at the end of the contract.

I’m fine with overpaying a guy like Abreu. What I’m not fine with is refusing to overpay a guy like Wheeler because you are overpaying a guy like Abreu. I have no problem with the signing in and of itself. However, with this team’s history of never, ever, EVER landing the big fish in free agency (I’m not interested in rehashing the argument about why this is the case, I’m just acknowledging the fact that it IS the case), there are 2 perfectly rational fears associated with the signing.

1) Reinsdorf may not have earmarked funds specifically for Abreu’s cushy contract, so the money he is getting will be money that cannot be used to fill other needs. If you’re going to issue that kind of mandate on your GM, you need to properly fund it.

2) Like Domeshot17 mentioned, Abreu may keep getting his typical ridiculous workload even if he no longe puts up numbers that justify it.

To top it all off, none of these risks were even necessary. This definitely could have been handled on a year-by-year basis. Instead, we guaranteed the 2021 (age 34) and 2022 (age 35) seasons to a guy who may end up being a platoon-caliber player—or possibly an unplayable player—by that time. Even if they wanted to commit to 3/$50, they could have deferred about $15 more of it than they did. $10/10/10 and $3/3/3/3/3/3/3 deferred would have been fine. He obviously will be here in some capacity long past 2022, so why not just structure it like this? Maybe even call the beginning 2 years of deferrals option buyouts and tack $10 options to them.
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  #26  
Old 02-19-2020, 05:21 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Nit-pick, but Castellanos was not above 120 in 2017 (112).

I'm not sure what the concern over re-signing Abreu is. It's a short term deal for not a lot of money and hedges the White Sox against a Vaughn set-back.

Abreu is a 2- 3 WAR player. The average $ paid per 1 WAR is around 8.6 million, seems like a fair deal. As shown by many studies the average player fall off from 33 to 36 is not overly dramatic. Age 36 is when most players tend to experience the big drop offs, so there is a decent chance that Abreu will still be a 2 WAR player at age 35.
I meant for the 4-year period in total.
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  #27  
Old 02-19-2020, 07:24 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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I don’t care about the money. And the years themselves don’t necessarily bother me. If it makes the other Cubans more likely to sign/stay with us, even better.

The only thing I don’t like that much is the commitment of years when it’s quite possible that the Sox might be able to solve 1B/DH cheaply with internal options from among Vaughn, Sheets, Collins, and even Eloy (if enough OFs who are better defenders break through from the minors to relegate Eloy at least to part time DH duty).

It’s going to be disappointing if we go with Abreu/Encarnacion for too long, and in the meantime trade away our young/cheap 1B/DH prospect depth because we’ve topped out our self-imposed payroll.

Having cheap but productive 1B/DH power allows resources to be allocated into extensions for Moncada/Giolito/Kopech, and/or augment the roster elsewhere.
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  #28  
Old 02-20-2020, 03:41 PM
XplodingScorbord XplodingScorbord is offline
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Abreu has been a pro’s pro since the day he arrived here. Anybody griping about anything he gets can cram it as far as I’m concerned. He’s earned every penny, even this vastly overblown “overpay.”
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  #29  
Old 02-20-2020, 03:55 PM
FielderJones FielderJones is offline
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Only on WSI — Reinsdorf is simultaneously a sentimental stupid spendthrift and a cold-hearted miserly cheapskate.
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  #30  
Old 02-20-2020, 05:04 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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abreu has been a pro’s pro since the day he arrived here. Anybody griping about anything he gets can cram it as far as i’m concerned. He’s earned every penny, even this vastly overblown “overpay.”
+1
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