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  #1  
Old 02-18-2020, 09:22 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Default Abreu Contract Worth Discussion

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Originally Posted by thomas35forever View Post
Abreu told reporters today he wasn't going anywhere this offseason except back here. Class.
Not that I doubt his sincerity, but that is really easy to say when you just got a massive overpay that no other team would even dream of giving you...
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  #2  
Old 02-18-2020, 10:20 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Not that I doubt his sincerity, but that is really easy to say when you just got a massive overpay that no other team would even dream of giving you...
When a team you play for, a team that knows more about you rather than numbers, gives you more than any other team would give you, I don't know if that could be considered a massive overpay.

I would reserve "massive overpay" for free agents who hold out well beyond teams competitively bidding for services and only sign until a team ponies up to their demands, which is more than any other team would ever dream of giving you.
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  #3  
Old 02-18-2020, 10:56 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
When a team you play for, a team that knows more about you rather than numbers, gives you more than any other team would give you, I don't know if that could be considered a massive overpay.

I would reserve "massive overpay" for free agents who hold out well beyond teams competitively bidding for services and only sign until a team ponies up to their demands, which is more than any other team would ever dream of giving you.
He accepted the QO. Anything over that is an overpay by default. Going 2 years was an overpay. Going 3 years was a massive overpay.
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  #4  
Old 02-18-2020, 11:22 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
He accepted the QO. Anything over that is an overpay by default. Going 2 years was an overpay. Going 3 years was a massive overpay.
Certainly, the team could have been hardline cheapskates and not paid him any more than they were required to pay him. If they believed that he was worth more based on their experiences with him, if they believed they wanted a longer commitment, I don't have any problem with the team paying him more than they absolutely had to. The White Sox and Abreu seem to believe they are treating each other fairly.

It's always a gamble to sign a player to any contract because the reality is that you will be paying him for what he does in the future, although if he has played for you in the past, some of that might be a reward for what he has done for you in the past. There really is no way that Stephen Strasburg will be worth what the Nationals will be paying him, but what he has done for them in the past is the foundation of his current contract.

Certainly, you could make the argument that the White Sox are grossly overpaying Abreu. But an extension of that argument has the Padres grossly overpaying Machado exponentially. Abreu isn't being grossly overpaid so much that it will affect future personnel decisions, as some players who are being much more grossly overpaid will.
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  #5  
Old 02-19-2020, 06:20 AM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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Is there really nothing going on in Spring Training yet, forcing us to keep rehashing the same arguments about offseason activity or lack thereof? I already know what you all think about the Abreu extension.

What sources are you all using to follow the Sox in Spring Training? Which newspapers and twitter feeds have good updates?
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  #6  
Old 02-19-2020, 07:45 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Certainly, the team could have been hardline cheapskates and not paid him any more than they were required to pay him. If they believed that he was worth more based on their experiences with him, if they believed they wanted a longer commitment, I don't have any problem with the team paying him more than they absolutely had to. The White Sox and Abreu seem to believe they are treating each other fairly.

It's always a gamble to sign a player to any contract because the reality is that you will be paying him for what he does in the future, although if he has played for you in the past, some of that might be a reward for what he has done for you in the past. There really is no way that Stephen Strasburg will be worth what the Nationals will be paying him, but what he has done for them in the past is the foundation of his current contract.

Certainly, you could make the argument that the White Sox are grossly overpaying Abreu. But an extension of that argument has the Padres grossly overpaying Machado exponentially. Abreu isn't being grossly overpaid so much that it will affect future personnel decisions, as some players who are being much more grossly overpaid will.
Except they would not be cheapskates. Abreu agreed to the offer.

If youíre making the argument that the QO system as a whole is an example of owners being cheap, I agree with you. That is what the system has become nowadays. It used to be looked upon as a way for teams to get some sort of consolation prize if they lost a premier player to a team with deeper pockets. Now itís flipped to the point where losing the premier player is actually the preferred option in many cases. To make matters worse, the forfeitures for signing a QO free agent have led buying teams to value the draft picks and international money over good players who can help their teams win.

As for the Abreu/Machado situation, Machado definitely was more overpaid than Abreu last year. Abreu was pretty much break-even in terms of dollars per WAR. Machado was overpaid by about $8 million.
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  #7  
Old 02-19-2020, 08:32 AM
Kilroy Kilroy is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Not that I doubt his sincerity, but that is really easy to say when you just got a massive overpay that no other team would even dream of giving you...
Abreu also said pretty much the exact same thing last summer. Remember he said he's sign himself to a deal with the Sox, refuse to leave, and several other similar statements, all throughout last season. Was it easy to say then?
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  #8  
Old 02-19-2020, 08:52 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
He accepted the QO. Anything over that is an overpay by default. Going 2 years was an overpay. Going 3 years was a massive overpay.
It seems clear that the Sox decided to pay Abreu for more than his on-field contributions. He's the clubhouse leader, especially among the Hispanic players (which last I checked, compromises most of the "core" position players). It also cements the Sox as the #1 destination for Cuban players, which has already paid off with one international signing and will likely continue to do so for the next few years.

If Moncada ends up signing an extension (Hahn hinted at this possibility in the past week), I'm sure he will reference the Sox loyalty to Abreu as a factor.
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  #9  
Old 02-19-2020, 08:53 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomas35forever View Post
Abreu told reporters today he wasn't going anywhere this offseason except back here. Class.
This may be the comment you are referring to:
https://www.facebook.com/45484098297...bstory_index=0


Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
Is there really nothing going on in Spring Training yet, forcing us to keep rehashing the same arguments about offseason activity or lack thereof? I already know what you all think about the Abreu extension.
Thank you!!!!

So, someone posts here about classy comments Jose made and that's YET another excuse to take YET another steaming dump on the contract extension that the Sox gave him? Are we going to continue to crap all over the extension every time Abreu's name is mentioned in every thread? Sheesh. The ignore function works fine, but you still see posts in quoted responses. I can't wait for the post-game threads this coming season.

Last edited by Hitmen77; 02-19-2020 at 09:01 AM.
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  #10  
Old 02-19-2020, 09:03 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
It seems clear that the Sox decided to pay Abreu for more than his on-field contributions. He's the clubhouse leader, especially among the Hispanic players (which last I checked, compromises most of the "core" position players). It also cements the Sox as the #1 destination for Cuban players, which has already paid off with one international signing and will likely continue to do so for the next few years.

If Moncada ends up signing an extension (Hahn hinted at this possibility in the past week), I'm sure he will reference the Sox loyalty to Abreu as a factor.

It could have been a factor in the Robert extension, too.
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  #11  
Old 02-19-2020, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
He accepted the QO. Anything over that is an overpay by default. Going 2 years was an overpay. Going 3 years was a massive overpay.
Not true, not true, not true, not true, not true. Oh, this is not true.

QO's are set by the league, they are not set by the team making the offer. They are based on what other players in the same position are getting.

If your statement was true, then there are dozens, maybe even hundreds, of players who are "overpaid" since many players negotiate extension after accepting a QO. All accepting a QO does is makes it 100% certain the player and the team will remain together for at least another year and gives them time to negotiate a mutually agreed-to contract.
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Old 02-19-2020, 10:31 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Abreu is overpaid, yes.

But that said, While I am not a huge believer in paying for intangible value, he is a strong attractor of cuban talent. If him being overpaid a couple mil a year keeps us in the running consistently for the top players out of Cuba, and he will continue to be that ambassador after his career is over, I am okay with it.

My bigger concern is what happens when the production isn't there. Is he going to have an issue when Vaughn is ready to take over and he is in a bench role? I don't want to see him getting the PK treatment (and Konerko was my fav player) where he gets 750 just useless ABs to finish his career because his career earned it. We will be in a championship window.

I know all the kids look up to him and his work ethic and that is great. My concern is, he has been to a playoff game with the Sox. So I wonder how much value he brings to a winner. It isn't like he is going to bring this Lester like winning mentality. Not saying he is a born loser or anything, but we don't know how he will handle himself on the big stage if we get there.

But its a 3 year deal, the money isn't horrible by today's standards. So whatever, not much of a concern either way.
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Old 02-19-2020, 10:56 AM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Abreu is overpaid, yes.

But that said, While I am not a huge believer in paying for intangible value, he is a strong attractor of cuban talent. If him being overpaid a couple mil a year keeps us in the running consistently for the top players out of Cuba, and he will continue to be that ambassador after his career is over, I am okay with it.

My bigger concern is what happens when the production isn't there. Is he going to have an issue when Vaughn is ready to take over and he is in a bench role? I don't want to see him getting the PK treatment (and Konerko was my fav player) where he gets 750 just useless ABs to finish his career because his career earned it. We will be in a championship window.

I know all the kids look up to him and his work ethic and that is great. My concern is, he has been to a playoff game with the Sox. So I wonder how much value he brings to a winner. It isn't like he is going to bring this Lester like winning mentality. Not saying he is a born loser or anything, but we don't know how he will handle himself on the big stage if we get there.

But its a 3 year deal, the money isn't horrible by today's standards. So whatever, not much of a concern either way.
I think the Sox expectation for Vaughn would be he comes up in 2021 and I bet at that point, Abreu is not blocking him. They might wind up splitting sometime between DH and first, but it's not like Vaughn will be riding the bench in favor of Abreu.

The comparison between Abreu and Konerko is interesting because starting in 2010, Konerko started spending less time at first base. Now there wasn't really an heir-apparent like there is now, but someone like Dunn and even Kotsay could start a fair number of games at first where Thome couldn't and Konerko said that rest helped him a lot in bounce-back from 2010 through the first half of 2012. I'm really curious to see if Abreu would benefit at all from having some days off in the field this year.
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  #14  
Old 02-19-2020, 11:13 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Abreu also said pretty much the exact same thing last summer. Remember he said he's sign himself to a deal with the Sox, refuse to leave, and several other similar statements, all throughout last season. Was it easy to say then?
If this level of contract was proposed to him back then? Absolutely.

The market for 1B/DH/LF types dried up something fierce last offseason. It wasnít much better this offseason.

Even a guy like Nick Castellanos, who:

1) Proved that the smack he was talking about Comerica tanking his overall numbers was completely justified

2) Has posted an OPS+ above 120 the past 4 years despite playing all but 2 of those 24 months in that numbers-depressing stadium

3) Is 5 years younger than Abreu

only secured 4/$64 with NO QO attached. Abreu got 3/$50 at age 33 WITH a QO attached.

Letís just say that there was a reason other than just good olí warm fuzzies that he took the QO. He likely would have ended up near that amount anyway, and he would have entered free agency a year older at 34, albeit with no QO.
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Old 02-19-2020, 11:16 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Not true, not true, not true, not true, not true. Oh, this is not true.

QO's are set by the league, they are not set by the team making the offer. They are based on what other players in the same position are getting.

If your statement was true, then there are dozens, maybe even hundreds, of players who are "overpaid" since many players negotiate extension after accepting a QO. All accepting a QO does is makes it 100% certain the player and the team will remain together for at least another year and gives them time to negotiate a mutually agreed-to contract.
The AAV is not the overpay. Guaranteeing that AAV for Abreuís age-34 and age-35 seasons when his age-33 season is already secured by the QO is the overpay.
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