White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
GO SOX! DSNB!

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 09-10-2019, 12:06 PM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is offline
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 58,230
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
I guess I agree with the people who say they're not worried about Jimenez/Moncada/Anderson so much as they're worried about the ability of the team to fill in gaps in the core with FA signings.

Part of the reason to be optimistic about the 2020 White Sox is the sheer amount of payroll flexibility. If they can't leverage that advantage, then it's going to be a disappointing decade.

And on top of the Sox generally being poor judges of talent, you have to factor in that a lot of the top tier FAs took themselves off the market recently with team-friendly extensions.
When's the last time the Sox had this few "gaps" to potentially fill? They have 4 young cost-controlled starters all of who have shown flashes of being top 3 rotation guys or higher. They have 6/8 position players filled by players currently on the roster and succeeding at some level or close to ready with excellent numbers and progress through the minors to make them probable success stories.

The bullpen needs some pieces, but this team has a wealth of good young MLB quality talent and as you pointed out has lots of payroll flexibility. It's not just wishful thinking to say the future does indeed look bright (at least on paper).
__________________

Riding shotgun on the Sox bandwagon since before there was an Internet...
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 09-10-2019, 12:07 PM
asindc asindc is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Washington, DC area
Posts: 9,080
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
I guess I agree with the people who say they're not worried about Jimenez/Moncada/Anderson so much as they're worried about the ability of the team to fill in gaps in the core with FA signings.

Part of the reason to be optimistic about the 2020 White Sox is the sheer amount of payroll flexibility. If they can't leverage that advantage, then it's going to be a disappointing decade.

And on top of the Sox generally being poor judges of talent, you have to factor in that a lot of the top tier FAs took themselves off the market recently with team-friendly extensions.
I think it is more a question of willingness than ability. It doesn't take special skill to offer the most money.
__________________
"I have the ultimate respect for White Sox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Red Sox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country." Jim Caple, ESPN (January 12, 2011)


"We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the (bleeding) obvious is the first duty of intelligent men." ó George Orwell
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 09-10-2019, 12:11 PM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 1,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by asindc View Post
I think it is more a question of willingness than ability. It doesn't take special skill to offer the most money.
Of course not. The skill is in deciding which players are worth that money. They're not only going to be going after the $200 million contract guys (though I think very well could add 1-2 of them), they are going to need to identify the right pieces to fill in around them and the rest of the core.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 09-10-2019, 01:17 PM
Flight #24 Flight #24 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 9,357
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
I guess I agree with the people who say they're not worried about Jimenez/Moncada/Anderson so much as they're worried about the ability of the team to fill in gaps in the core with FA signings.

Part of the reason to be optimistic about the 2020 White Sox is the sheer amount of payroll flexibility. If they can't leverage that advantage, then it's going to be a disappointing decade.

And on top of the Sox generally being poor judges of talent, you have to factor in that a lot of the top tier FAs took themselves off the market recently with team-friendly extensions.
Holy crapballs, I agree with HomeFish, although I think on the top tier guys the "poor judge of talent" think is less critical. But the track record on the lower tier guys is not good (which is surprising given the quality of the international FA signings and prospect trades which I would think have similar processes as evaluating FAs).
__________________
"You don't quit. You don't go home before it's time. You don't come out of a game, even if you are in pain and feel as if you can't go one more step"
"Never give up, Never, never, never give up."
- Luther Head after Elite 8 win v. Arizona
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 09-10-2019, 01:32 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 13,332
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
OK- I'm very optimistic of the core-

Outfield- Eloy, Robert + FA/trade (w/Rutherford, Walker, Adolfo, Basabe in the mix)
Infield- Moncada, Anderson, Madrigal, Vaughn (w/Sheets in the mix)
Catcher- not much here
DH- Collins along with some of the guys mentioned abover
Starting Pitching- Giolito, Kopech, Lopez, Cease, Dunning, Rodon (plus Lambert, Flores, Stiever in the mix)

Very strong core- how we add to it is the key variable
After the top six in that lineup core, the next level of prospects you mention (Collins, Sheets, Walker, Rutherford, etc.) are more uncertain to become everyday starters on a good team. But, at least we have several of them as possibilities for 2 lineup spots (RF, DH) and we're not relying on any one player there. And yeah, catcher is a big question mark. McCann is 29 and has to prove he's not merely having a career year. Collins seems doubtful to become an adequate everyday catcher.

The starting pitching doesn't sound quite as dire as some make it out to be when you list all those guys in the running. Still a lot of question marks, though. But, it's not like we have nobody either. I'm not counting on Rodon for anything at this point. He'll be back to full speed (if that happens) just in time for his walk year.

My hope is that the Sox realize they'll likely need to spend for at least one top quality bat and one top quality starting pitcher. I'm doubtful about their ability to pull that off, but we'll see.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
I agree the core is looking good. The only thing that leaves me a bit hesitant about the rebuild is that there is a pretty steep fall in the minors after the top guys. If any of the main guys fail (which happens sometimes even for top prospects), the problem will have to be solved via FA.

That said, unlike most I'm confident that when the time is right (which hopefully starts this winter), the team will spend some money to fill in the holes. They almost HAVE to spend money this winter, payroll is so low and the opportunity is there to put together an interesting/competitive young team.

I also think that once the team starts winning, JR will be willing to increase payroll even higher if that's what's need to maintain the winning. Remember, in 2006 the Sox had a top-5 payroll in MLB.

Regarding signing pitchers to big long-term deals, I think the market is changing and even the big-spending teams are no longer going to be as willing to sign guys to 8-year deals knowing they're not going to get the production for the last half. Last offseason the biggest FA signing of a SP was Corbin (6-years, $140 M), and after him there was nobody even close. Cole is a similar age and has been better than Corbin over the past two years, but I think you'll see the difference in their contracts in dollars, not years. At least I hope so. I could see the Sox going 6-years, $180 M for Cole, and that very well could be the best offer he gets.
I'm one of those fans who is highly skeptical of the Sox willingness to outbid other teams to bring high-quality talent here, but you bring up a good point: having such a low payroll commitment and such a large solid core of internal talent is pretty much unprecedented in the post-2005 era . We had a much higher payroll when we made Adam Dunn our big FA splash.

Last edited by Hitmen77; 09-10-2019 at 01:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 09-10-2019, 02:47 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,943
Default

Maybe the Sox ought to consider moving Rodon into an Andrew Miller role. Seems like he could be highly successful there and the Sox could use someone like that.
__________________
Fire Rinky Hahliams!!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 09-10-2019, 03:17 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 11,810
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
Maybe the Sox ought to consider moving Rodon into an Andrew Miller role. Seems like he could be highly successful there and the Sox could use someone like that.
Plus, losing him to his annual IL stint doesn't hurt the team as much.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsemaster Fred
This is the major leagues so get it how you live and letís fight tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 09-10-2019, 04:08 PM
Chez's Avatar
Chez Chez is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Clarendon Hills
Posts: 7,112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
Maybe the Sox ought to consider moving Rodon into an Andrew Miller role. Seems like he could be highly successful there and the Sox could use someone like that.
Interesting proposal. I wonder what would be more taxing on his arm -- pitching 6+ innings every 5th day or pitching two innings 3-4 times a week (like Miller)?
__________________

2019 Sox Attendance Tracker: 8-6
All time Sox Attendance Tracker:

285-247
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 09-10-2019, 04:37 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 11,810
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Interesting proposal. I wonder what would be more taxing on his arm -- pitching 6+ innings every 5th day or pitching two innings 3-4 times a week (like Miller)?
With Bummer around, Rodon probably would not even have to work that often.

Assuming another legitimate bullpen arm is not added, this would be my ideal bullpen going into next year.

RH bridges:
Fulmer
Ruiz
Cordero
Herrera

LH bridges:
Fry
Rodon
Bummer

Closer:
Colomť

I would much rather see another proven arm brought in to replace one of the Fry/Fulmer/Ruiz/Cordero projects, but I donít know who is looking to make a Colomť-type trade for anything we have. Maybe a swap of an overpaid reliever for Yolmer?
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 09-10-2019, 10:23 PM
BRDSR BRDSR is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 1,985
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
Of course not. The skill is in deciding which players are worth that money. They're not only going to be going after the $200 million contract guys (though I think very well could add 1-2 of them), they are going to need to identify the right pieces to fill in around them and the rest of the core.
I would say I lean towards the optimistic side of the spectrum regarding this rebuild. Not voodoo optimistic but in the 67-75 percentile range as compared to the average Sox fan.

But if the Sox uncork two 9-figure deals (Iím talking $100 million, not $200 million) within the next two off-season, Iíll be floored. One, okay. Two is not happening.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 09-10-2019, 11:23 PM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is offline
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 58,230
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRDSR View Post
I would say I lean towards the optimistic side of the spectrum regarding this rebuild. Not voodoo optimistic but in the 67-75 percentile range as compared to the average Sox fan.

But if the Sox uncork two 9-figure deals (Iím talking $100 million, not $200 million) within the next two off-season, Iíll be floored. One, okay. Two is not happening.
Might be able to get by with one if it's a top of the rotation starter. Then they could sign a stopgap in RF and hope one of the kids shows up in the next two years and that Sheets and Vaughn both show up by 2021.

Once they figure out RF and 1B/DH they can even trade some of the other players for more depth or high end bullpen help.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:17 AM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,235
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRDSR View Post
I would say I lean towards the optimistic side of the spectrum regarding this rebuild. Not voodoo optimistic but in the 67-75 percentile range as compared to the average Sox fan.

But if the Sox uncork two 9-figure deals (Iím talking $100 million, not $200 million) within the next two off-season, Iíll be floored. One, okay. Two is not happening.
There have to be good young players worth that first for that to be even possible. This offseason likely only Cole and Rendon will be nine figure deals. Next year only Betts will go that high, if he even becomes a FA. So this FO isn't going for it if they don't land at least of of these guys? A lot has to go right to land a big FA player, and that goes for any team. If Cole gets offered $250 mil for 8 years, is that the FO's fault for not getting him? If Rendon gets a similar deal to Arenado, is that their fault? If Betts signs a mega deal elsewhere, we can blame Jerry again?

Yes, the Dunn, Keppinger, LaRoche deals were bad, but the FA landscape has drastically changed over the last 2 years. EVERY team is beyond weary of 30+ year old players now. They just aren't getting paid close to what they used to, and the Sox sure as hell have noticed like all the rest.

Look at the players the Sox were linked to this past offseason, some to a greater degree than others: Machado, Harper, Corbin, Grandal, Pederson, Brantley, Moustakas, and Ottavino. Those are some names that had great years in 2019, or would be long term pieces that everyone would be ecstatic to have. But absolutely no credit given to Hahn for targeting these guys. People here expect him to be going dumpster diving next year. People are not seeing what actually went on last offseason and think that getting Jon Jay and Manny Banuelos were what he was trying to get to compete. Not the case. Things changed dramatically when Machado signed with SD, and because that saga literally took ALL offseason, they were not in an ideal position to add or trade for them. I really think Hahn will add the right players this offseason and possibly the following if need be, to complement this impressive core that HE built. There are a number of players that can be had for the $50-$90mil range that would be excellent adds to the core. Would love to get Cole this offseason, but so would about 10 other teams.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:43 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 11,810
Default

I hope Hahn just says no to those $50-90 million guys. If that is the upper limit on spending, then weíre firmly entrenched in that Royals/Aís/Marlins/Pirates group, and we should just swing trades to get the guys we need.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 09-11-2019, 08:00 AM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 7,083
Default

I admit it, as a resident of the DC area I spend a few hours each month mentally shuffling the White Sox infield around to see how Anthony Rendon could possibly fit in, but he's a Boras client so I don't think that's a problem they will ever come close to having.

In terms of non break the bank FAs that could have an immediate impact on the Sox, I like Puig and Ozuna.
__________________
"Hope...may be indulged in by those who have abundant resources...but its nature is to be extravagant, and those who go so far as to stake their all upon the venture see it in its true colors only when they are ruined."
-- Thucydides
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 09-11-2019, 08:59 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 1,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
I hope Hahn just says no to those $50-90 million guys. If that is the upper limit on spending, then weíre firmly entrenched in that Royals/Aís/Marlins/Pirates group, and we should just swing trades to get the guys we need.
The Sox don't have many trade assets other than the guys they are relying on for their "core".

I very much disagree on the $50-$90 guys. If you're talking about a 2-year, $50 million contract, you're going to get a very good player. Similarly for a 3-year, $90-million contract. This team needs $25-$30-million per year players, and they don't all need to be signed to super long-term deals.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (0 members and 4 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:40 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.