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  #31  
Old 09-02-2019, 03:07 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is online now
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
It's a little older (after the fallout from the union and players getting on the same page), but this is an infinitely better counterpoint than implying that Passan or the people he's talking to have bad information.

Keep in mind too that Passan's main point isn't service time manipulation, but that the White Sox prospects are ready now and that by the time it will matter for their clocks, the industry isn't expecting that a 7th year will be a thing for the Sox anyway.
Ok... but then it makes even more sense to wait until next year to bring them up then. If the industry thinks that the 7th year will be taken away from all young players, then get 6 years starting in 2020, bringing them up for Sept this year would be wasting a full year then and the Sox would have only had them for 5 full years.
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  #32  
Old 09-02-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Ok... but then it makes even more sense to wait until next year to bring them up then. If the industry thinks that the 7th year will be taken away from all young players, then get 6 years starting in 2020, bringing them up for Sept this year would be wasting a full year then and the Sox would have only had them for 5 full years.
Depends on how they change the CBA. I doubt the owners are going to let them get away with "catch a cup of coffee and it counts as a full year".

Probably more like 60 or 90 days of service time counts as a full year or Super 2 cutoff to get the extra year so teams are less likely to abuse it with big time prospects. For example, no way the Sox would want to leave Robert down until late June next year and the extra half year isn't worth nearly as much.

I'm guessing they'll negotiate one free September call up but the next time the player comes up the clock starts ticking with a 60 or 90 day max for a "free year" if they get called up before September.
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  #33  
Old 09-02-2019, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
I'm guessing they'll negotiate one free September call up but the next time the player comes up the clock starts ticking with a 60 or 90 day max for a "free year" if they get called up before September.

This.


I players want their September cups of coffee, they're going to have to give up starting the clock right there. Otherwise the manipulation is going to continue.
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  #34  
Old 09-03-2019, 10:20 AM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is online now
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Ryan Mountcastle of the Orioles was not called up when rosters expanded. He's the overall #66 prospect in baseball and played 127 games in AAA slashing .312/.344/.527. Clearly they are also service time manipulating. So again, not only the Sox...
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  #35  
Old 09-03-2019, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
If the White Sox do not have coaches in the lowers levels help players improve their game then this organization should throw in the towel. This is one is on the player and the coaches at those levels that looked the other way.



Nice straw man: I never called anyone a liar.



Are you talking just about the offensive side of the game or do you consider struggling to be lack of fundamentals in the field, throwing and/or on the base paths?
I think it would have helped every aspect of his game if he was called up in September. The Sox would have had a better idea of just how bad his defense was and what in his swing needed to be worked on. Jimenez also would have benefited from having an idea of how pitchers would attack him, how to play various angles in the field etc. I think he was so dominant in Triple-A last year that it masked almost all the holes in his game.

Those holes were exposed by major league pitching and major league experience, I think that's the only way those holes would have ever been exposed. If the problem with Robert is pitch selection, he should work on that at the major league level now rather than at the start of next year when we might be hoping to contend.

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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Ryan Mountcastle of the Orioles was not called up when rosters expanded. He's the overall #66 prospect in baseball and played 127 games in AAA slashing .312/.344/.527. Clearly they are also service time manipulating. So again, not only the Sox...
I would suggest that the Orioles are not an example the Sox should try to emulate.
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  #36  
Old 09-03-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I would suggest that the Orioles are not an example the Sox should try to emulate.
Thatís not the point.
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  #37  
Old 09-03-2019, 11:20 AM
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Thatís not the point.
Thank you.
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  #38  
Old 09-03-2019, 11:21 AM
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Bo Bichette? Yordan Alvarez? Bryan Reynolds? Vlad Guererro, Jr.? All were on today's MLB.com list of potential ROY. All were called up to the majors midway through April (or later).
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  #39  
Old 09-03-2019, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Ryan Mountcastle of the Orioles was not called up when rosters expanded. He's the overall #66 prospect in baseball and played 127 games in AAA slashing .312/.344/.527. Clearly they are also service time manipulating. So again, not only the Sox...
It's really not fair to compare an elite prospect like Luis Robert with a plus skill but highly flawed option like Mountcastle.

Mountcastle has a .215 ISO in AAA and has been aided by an unsustainable .370 BABIP.

Conversely, in AAA Robert has a .337 ISO and a BABIP (.324) that is more in line with his production.

Luis Robert is ready. Mountcastle is not.
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  #40  
Old 09-03-2019, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Bo Bichette? Yordan Alvarez? Bryan Reynolds? Vlad Guererro, Jr.? All were on today's MLB.com list of potential ROY. All were called up to the majors midway through April (or later).
You realize other than Guerrero, those players came up a year early, right? Right? MLB.com lists don't mean anything. Those players would not be up right now if teams were manipulating service time.
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  #41  
Old 09-03-2019, 11:43 AM
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When you look at the big picture, the "manipulation" of service time is a good thing. Some of the players need some MLB seasoning, some don't. If we thought the Sox were in contention for the World Series next year (versus being in the run for a post season appearance), then I suppose ten games or so this month would help Robert and Madrigal. But if our serious run starts in 2021, then we will all be very happy with that extra year of control.

It is not manipulation at all. It is using the rules as they are written. Manipulation means it is sneaky and hidden. It also means telling people one thing and meaning to do another thing. There is nothing against the rules with delaying service time, so it is not manipulation. The only people who are pissed are the agents who have to wait an extra year to collect their paychecks. Boo ****in hoo for them.
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  #42  
Old 09-03-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by FielderJones View Post
This.


I players want their September cups of coffee, they're going to have to give up starting the clock right there. Otherwise the manipulation is going to continue.
That is the general thought. 5 or 6 years of control, and September callups don't count. This, and the cancellation of the 7th year of control for any player whose clock has started.
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  #43  
Old 09-03-2019, 11:49 AM
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You realize other than Guerrero, those players came up a year early, right? Right? MLB.com lists don't mean anything. Those players would not be up right now if teams were manipulating service time.
How do you determine if a player comes up a year early?
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  #44  
Old 09-03-2019, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
When you look at the big picture, the "manipulation" of service time is a good thing. Some of the players need some MLB seasoning, some don't. If we thought the Sox were in contention for the World Series next year (versus being in the run for a post season appearance), then I suppose ten games or so this month would help Robert and Madrigal. But if our serious run starts in 2021, then we will all be very happy with that extra year of control.

It is not manipulation at all. It is using the rules as they are written. Manipulation means it is sneaky and hidden. It also means telling people one thing and meaning to do another thing. There is nothing against the rules with delaying service time, so it is not manipulation. The only people who are pissed are the agents who have to wait an extra year to collect their paychecks. Boo ****in hoo for them.
No, you're wrong! The Sox are incompetent! That's why we won't see Robert or Madrigal this September! Waaaaah! We want to see them now!
NOW!
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  #45  
Old 09-03-2019, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
When you look at the big picture, the "manipulation" of service time is a good thing. Some of the players need some MLB seasoning, some don't. If we thought the Sox were in contention for the World Series next year (versus being in the run for a post season appearance), then I suppose ten games or so this month would help Robert and Madrigal. But if our serious run starts in 2021, then we will all be very happy with that extra year of control.

It is not manipulation at all. It is using the rules as they are written. Manipulation means it is sneaky and hidden. It also means telling people one thing and meaning to do another thing. There is nothing against the rules with delaying service time, so it is not manipulation. The only people who are pissed are the agents who have to wait an extra year to collect their paychecks. Boo ****in hoo for them.
What this misses is that it's against labor law to manipulate or create a situation that denies a promotion to someone.
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