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  #16  
Old 09-01-2019, 12:32 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Source? The source is Jeff Passan. He did cite recent examples, with the Mets and Padres, and said that the argument holds up historically. Are you implying that one of the highest regarded analysts and sportswriters in the industry is simply making that up? Okay...but if so you're going to have to back that up. I see no reason to doubt that Passan has done his research.

Yeah, because when a party been burned when relying on second hand information? When has a supposed expert ever been wrong in anything?
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  #17  
Old 09-01-2019, 12:49 PM
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When Eloy was clearly not ready.
I disagree. He's getting more coaching on defense at the major league level than he was in the minors because of accessibility to every day input. But, I'll leave it at that.
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  #18  
Old 09-01-2019, 01:37 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Yeah, because when a party been burned when relying on second hand information? When has a supposed expert ever been wrong in anything?
Cool. Got it. Your take is that esteemed reporters are liars and you know better. Cheers, man.
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  #19  
Old 09-01-2019, 02:11 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
When Eloy was clearly not ready.
Eloy wasn’t learning anything in AAA, I can’t help but wonder if he was called up last year in September, would he have been exposed by major league pitching the way he was when was first called up? Could that have given him and the Sox a better idea of things he needed to work on in the off season? I kind of feel the same way about Robert, call him up now and let him struggle in meaningless games this year so both he and the organization have an idea of what they need to work on before the start of next year.
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  #20  
Old 09-01-2019, 02:14 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Eloy wasn’t learning anything in AAA, I can’t help but wonder if he was called up last year in September, would he have been exposed by major league pitching the way he was when was first called up? Could that have given him and the Sox a better idea of things he needed to work on in the off season? I kind of feel the same way about Robert, call him up now and let him struggle in meaningless games this year so both he and the organization have an idea of what they need to work on before the start of next year.
Couldn't agree with you more.
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  #21  
Old 09-01-2019, 06:16 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
I disagree. He's getting more coaching on defense at the major league level than he was in the minors because of accessibility to every day input. But, I'll leave it at that.
If the White Sox do not have coaches in the lowers levels help players improve their game then this organization should throw in the towel. This is one is on the player and the coaches at those levels that looked the other way.

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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Cool. Got it. Your take is that esteemed reporters are liars and you know better. Cheers, man.
Nice straw man: I never called anyone a liar.

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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Eloy wasn’t learning anything in AAA, I can’t help but wonder if he was called up last year in September, would he have been exposed by major league pitching the way he was when was first called up? Could that have given him and the Sox a better idea of things he needed to work on in the off season? I kind of feel the same way about Robert, call him up now and let him struggle in meaningless games this year so both he and the organization have an idea of what they need to work on before the start of next year.
Are you talking just about the offensive side of the game or do you consider struggling to be lack of fundamentals in the field, throwing and/or on the base paths?

Last edited by Grzegorz; 09-01-2019 at 06:24 PM.
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  #22  
Old 09-01-2019, 06:44 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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On the radio the other day Jeff Passan lambasted the White Sox for an outdated take on calling up position player prospects. His argument was two-fold;

The first part was that both historically and recently, production was better for players in their first season if they had a September callup the previous year. So if the White Sox are interested in being somewhat competitive next year, they should be calling up now anyone that is projected to be on the roster next year (meaning Madrigal too). He also said he doesn't believe the White Sox will make a jump next year, and this was a large reason for it.

The second part was more damning. He said that no MLB executives outside the White Sox organization are operating like they expect any of the players currently in the majors to have a 7th year under contract after the new collective bargaining agreement, and that if the White Sox believe otherwise they should probably fire whatever legal consul they are getting.

Not my words, but I tend to agree with his assessment. FWIW

So I agree that they should have brought up both Robert and Madrigal this year to start their adjustment period in the majors to be hopefully more productive in '20. I also have thought for a while that it's likely easier to get acquainted with the MLB game later in the season, following successful stints in AA/AAA, as opposed to coming up super early in April when not in mid season form. Not sure if any data or any backs that up.

However, I disagree that the Sox are the only ones doing this now. Like, this was clearly done last year by other teams, now all of a sudden 1 year later he can say with complete certainty that the Sox are the only ones? There just isn't the opportunity for all 30 teams to even manipulate right now. There has to be a top prospect, has to be an opening on the MLB team for him, has to be playing well in AAA, and it has to be late in the season too. So many different factors have to come together for there to even be a situation for manipulation.

The Sox brought up Cease in the second half this year, and he wasn't even pitching well in AAA. Would have been understandable if he still was in AAA. He's showing that he has a lot more progress that needs to be made.
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  #23  
Old 09-02-2019, 10:26 AM
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Serious question. Were the same service time rules in place when the Sox fast-tracked Rodon, Sale and Beckham?
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  #24  
Old 09-02-2019, 11:27 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Serious question. Were the same service time rules in place when the Sox fast-tracked Rodon, Sale and Beckham?
I believe the service time for players has been one hundred seventy-two days (on roster or IR) going back to the 2007-2011 CBA. That would have been the one Sale slotted into. What has changed is the number of days that comprise a season. In 2010 Sale was in twenty or so games but I believe those were games late in the season.
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  #25  
Old 09-02-2019, 11:58 AM
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The message I'm getting in this thread is clear: The Sox are screwed because they allegedly don't act like the other 29 teams when it comes to young players.
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  #26  
Old 09-02-2019, 12:55 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by thomas35forever View Post
The message I'm getting in this thread is clear: The Sox are screwed because they allegedly don't act like the other 29 teams when it comes to young players.

The message you're getting is clear unfortunatly for the messenger(s) the message is wrong.
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  #27  
Old 09-02-2019, 01:13 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
The message you're getting is clear unfortunatly for the messenger(s) the message is wrong.

Because, once again, you know better and Jeff Passan is a liar.

You can't call my argument a straw man and then also question Passan's report.

You can disagree with Passan. But you can't say it isn't industry consensus without calling Passan a liar. So which is it? Is it you on an island against the industry knowing better? Or is Passan a liar?
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  #28  
Old 09-02-2019, 01:28 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Because, once again, you know better and Jeff Passan is a liar.

You can't call my argument a straw man and then also question Passan's report.

You can disagree with Passan. But you can't say it isn't industry consensus without calling Passan a liar. So which is it? Is it you on an island against the industry knowing better? Or is Passan a liar?
Passan goes on assumption sometimes, as he did when he wrote over the winter that the Sox and Phillies were the only teams known to be willing to go 10 years on Harper/Machado. So Passan might not be a "liar", but he doesn't always report the truth.
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  #29  
Old 09-02-2019, 01:30 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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"Unfortunately, we live in an era in which baseball teams' general managers are more calculating and less sentimental than they've ever been."

https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/20...onto-blue-jays

"Everyone who watches Major League Baseball believes that its teams sometimes keep players unnecessarily in the minor leagues to manipulate their “service time,” in order to delay their eligibility to become free agents. It’s such a common perception that it tends to dominate media coverage of hot prospects, both in spring training and in the case of late-season call-ups. The teams, in turn, must pretend that this is not what they are doing. Thus, the scandal."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/...-manipulation/

Two counter arguments. It's not just the White Sox.

Last edited by Grzegorz; 09-02-2019 at 01:40 PM.
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  #30  
Old 09-02-2019, 02:56 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
"Unfortunately, we live in an era in which baseball teams' general managers are more calculating and less sentimental than they've ever been."

https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/20...onto-blue-jays

"Everyone who watches Major League Baseball believes that its teams sometimes keep players unnecessarily in the minor leagues to manipulate their “service time,” in order to delay their eligibility to become free agents. It’s such a common perception that it tends to dominate media coverage of hot prospects, both in spring training and in the case of late-season call-ups. The teams, in turn, must pretend that this is not what they are doing. Thus, the scandal."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/...-manipulation/

Two counter arguments. It's not just the White Sox.
It's a little older (after the fallout from the union and players getting on the same page), but this is an infinitely better counterpoint than implying that Passan or the people he's talking to have bad information.

Keep in mind too that Passan's main point isn't service time manipulation, but that the White Sox prospects are ready now and that by the time it will matter for their clocks, the industry isn't expecting that a 7th year will be a thing for the Sox anyway.
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