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  #1  
Old 08-31-2019, 03:30 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Default Service time manipulation discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
It's only a month. Just wait til next year.
On the radio the other day Jeff Passan lambasted the White Sox for an outdated take on calling up position player prospects. His argument was two-fold;

The first part was that both historically and recently, production was better for players in their first season if they had a September callup the previous year. So if the White Sox are interested in being somewhat competitive next year, they should be calling up now anyone that is projected to be on the roster next year (meaning Madrigal too). He also said he doesn't believe the White Sox will make a jump next year, and this was a large reason for it.

The second part was more damning. He said that no MLB executives outside the White Sox organization are operating like they expect any of the players currently in the majors to have a 7th year under contract after the new collective bargaining agreement, and that if the White Sox believe otherwise they should probably fire whatever legal consul they are getting.

Not my words, but I tend to agree with his assessment. FWIW
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  #2  
Old 08-31-2019, 04:21 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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The White Sox are still a year away anyway. Besides, even if they reduce the number of service years before free agency, the White Sox still save one of those years.
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  #3  
Old 08-31-2019, 05:44 PM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
The White Sox are still a year away anyway. Besides, even if they reduce the number of service years before free agency, the White Sox still save one of those years.
Unless they change the system completely to something where service time is not a factor.

But I don’t get why Passan is singling out the Sox when every other team is doing the same thing.
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  #4  
Old 08-31-2019, 07:10 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
Unless they change the system completely to something where service time is not a factor.

But I don’t get why Passan is singling out the Sox when every other team is doing the same thing.
Cubs manipulate Bryant’s service time: “Theo’s a savvy genius. This is just what good GMs do. The Cubs will win many more games in the long run as a result.”

White Sox manipulate Robert’s service time: “Hahn’s outdated and miserly thinking is sure to backfire after the next CBA is signed. Viva la September call-up! The White Sox will lose many more games in the long run as a result.”

Passan didn’t really take shots like this at us when he was with Yahoo. ESPN just despises our mere existence.
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  #5  
Old 08-31-2019, 07:37 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
On the radio the other day Jeff Passan lambasted the White Sox for an outdated take on calling up position player prospects. His argument was two-fold
His argument was no argument at all. It was a shot at the White Sox.
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  #6  
Old 09-01-2019, 08:55 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
Unless they change the system completely to something where service time is not a factor.

But I don’t get why Passan is singling out the Sox when every other team is doing the same thing.
But...no other team is doing it.

Other teams did it. But they don't anymore. Even the Blue Jays, who you could argue did it with Guerrero, then went ahead and called everyone else up a year early.

Passan's argument is that teams all know that the major contention for players with the next labor agreement is not only to remove the 7th year of control...but to retro remove those years from players that happened to. And everyone is certain of this, because there simply will not be baseball until that happens. The players will not relent or negotiate on that topic.
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  #7  
Old 09-01-2019, 08:56 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
His argument was no argument at all. It was a shot at the White Sox.
Consensus statements are not "shots". He was asked about the White Sox in particular on this issue and made it known how both he feels and how the industry (peers and players) feel about the way they are operating.
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  #8  
Old 09-01-2019, 09:58 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Consensus statements
By who?
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  #9  
Old 09-01-2019, 10:09 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
By who?
Reporters, industry execs, players. The implication Passan made was that the White Sox are the only people within the industry still acting like this.
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  #10  
Old 09-01-2019, 10:11 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Reporters, industry execs, players. The implication Passan made was that the White Sox are the only people within the industry still acting like this.
Which is nonsense.

"The first part was that both historically and recently, production was better for players in their first season if they had a September callup the previous year."

Source?


"He also said he doesn't believe the White Sox will make a jump next year, and this was a large reason for it."


BS, the pitching has a bunch to do with it. Bottom third in BA against, in BB, SO & WHIP


Source: http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#elem=%5Bobject+Object%5D&tab_level=ch ild&click_text=Sortable+Team+pitching&game_type='R '&season=2019&season_type=ANY&league_code='MLB'§io nType=st&statType=pitching&page=1&ts=1567350978461 &playerType=QUALIFIER&sportCode='mlb'&split=&team_ id=&active_sw=&position=&page_type=SortablePlayer& sortOrder='asc'&sortColumn=whip&results=&perPage=5 0&timeframe=&last_x_days=&extended=0

Last edited by Grzegorz; 09-01-2019 at 10:18 AM.
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  #11  
Old 09-01-2019, 11:13 AM
blurry blurry is offline
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This team won't contend next year without 1) getting a top of the order pitcher like Gerrit Cole and 2) having hitters who actually take walks. The team is dead last in walks per game this season.
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  #12  
Old 09-01-2019, 11:36 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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What they need to reduce is the amount of time required in the minors. Reduce the number of seasons to 3 before being added to the 40-man. Reduce the option years to 2. Pay guys on optional assignment the major league minimum.

Reducing the free agency requirement from 6+ to 5+ would help as well, with arbitration eligibility reduced from 3+ to 2+. Also, make free agent eligibility work like the Super Two. Instead of a firm limit of 171 days, make the limit percentage-based. The top __% (this would be a bargaining point) of the 5+ service time class would qualify, making the manipulation games harder for people to calculate.

3 years is long enough to be off the 40-man and get paid absolute garbage. 5 years is long enough to spend in the minors without a promotion to the 25-man. If anything, concede on keeping the free agent eligibility at 6+ and arbitration eligibility at 3+, but shave off as much of that minor league pittance pay as possible. Players still would get to free agency at an earlier age, but the struggling players getting their service time manipulated still get at least the league minimum.
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  #13  
Old 09-01-2019, 11:41 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Which is nonsense.

"The first part was that both historically and recently, production was better for players in their first season if they had a September callup the previous year."

Source?


"He also said he doesn't believe the White Sox will make a jump next year, and this was a large reason for it."


BS, the pitching has a bunch to do with it. Bottom third in BA against, in BB, SO & WHIP


Source: http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#elem=%5Bobject+Object%5D&tab_level=ch ild&click_text=Sortable+Team+pitching&game_type='R '&season=2019&season_type=ANY&league_code='MLB'§io nType=st&statType=pitching&page=1&ts=1567350978461 &playerType=QUALIFIER&sportCode='mlb'&split=&team_ id=&active_sw=&position=&page_type=SortablePlayer& sortOrder='asc'&sortColumn=whip&results=&perPage=5 0&timeframe=&last_x_days=&extended=0
Source? The source is Jeff Passan. He did cite recent examples, with the Mets and Padres, and said that the argument holds up historically. Are you implying that one of the highest regarded analysts and sportswriters in the industry is simply making that up? Okay...but if so you're going to have to back that up. I see no reason to doubt that Passan has done his research.

On pitching...next year's rotation was brought up to Passan (Giolito, Lopez, Cease, and Kopech) and he said in a few years sure but even if everything went right, the offense wouldn't be good enough because there's too many key guys that will be getting their first experience in May and historically that's not good for competing.
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  #14  
Old 09-01-2019, 12:00 PM
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Are the other players the Blue Jays brought up on par with Guerrero and Eloy and Robert or are the more in line with Collins and Madrigal? Because the Sox are clearly not manipulating the clock with their second tier FA either and they went out of their way to get Eloy on the team by opening day this year.
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  #15  
Old 09-01-2019, 12:25 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Are the other players the Blue Jays brought up on par with Guerrero and Eloy and Robert or are the more in line with Collins and Madrigal? Because the Sox are clearly not manipulating the clock with their second tier FA either and they went out of their way to get Eloy on the team by opening day this year.

When Eloy was clearly not ready.
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