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  #16  
Old 08-17-2019, 03:27 PM
TDog TDog is online now
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Great and if every kid who had a dad that played baseball was going to grow up to be a top prospect and have a bust out season then we could probably cut way back on scouting.

It doesn't matter who his dad was. None of the evaluations of his tools showed he had this potential. Name or no name. No one was thinking he was a surefire future stud.

**** the Sox drafted Ozzie's kid and has done the same for other players kids in late rounds. Not a single one of them has ever gone on to become a stud.

Your name does not guarantee great skills. Walter Payton and Michael Jordan both have grown children too.
When you live in spring training and minor league cities, you actually see a lot of players who get special respect and treatment because of their fathers. Bobby Clemente got a lot more attention than he deserved, especially considering that Padres coaches could tell he really didn't like playing baseball. Mike Yastrzemski Sr., who as a child got hitting instruction from Ted Williams and hung out with the Carlton Fisk-era Red Sox, made it all the way to AAA with the White Sox. He had a nice a college career and a great season at Birmingham going for him, but he had to retire when things got bad at AAA because the White Sox didn't release him. He told me that when other players go three-for-five, reporters ask them about their day while they asked him about his father. Turns out, and I learned this in the afternoon I spent with him, he wasn't really a very nice person and in fact stole his father's identity for financial gain before dying young. He never lived to see his son play for the Giants. He's not a Rookie of the Year candidate because this year in the National League there appears to be just the one.

Except for the players drafted as a favor deep in the draft, even a daughter at one point in Sox history, children of former major leaguers go higher in the draft than they otherwise might and, if international, get signed at an earlier age than other international players. They tend not to be in awe of major league ballplayers and know what they're getting into with pro ball and understand that it's a job professional demands. I asked Jerry Hairston once how he felt about his son playing for the Cubs, and he said it was great that his son had a job in baseball.

Tatis Jr. wasn't picked deep in the draft. He was signed at a young age. He was never just another player in the White Sox system. He certainly wasn't a forgotten player in the White Sox system.
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  #17  
Old 08-17-2019, 04:29 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
No, he was the best regarded prospect in the Sox system at the time of the trade. People didn’t necessarily know that he would be an All-Star, although Hahn is now saying (or at least has said) they were aware of the talent they were giving up when they traded Tatis.
He was not on anyone's radar when he was traded. Baseball America wrote about the trade:

"Though a shortstop currently, the 6-foot-1, 175-pounder is expected to transition to third base or the outfield as he grows, particularly to take advantage of his strong throwing arm, which is largely considered his best tool. The son of 11-year major league veteran Fernando Tatis, the younger Tatis has not seen any game action yet in his young career. BA did not rank him as one of the top 30 international prospects in 2015 or one of the White Sox top 30 prospects before this season."

Fulmer, Adams, Tilson, Engel, Fry, Covey were among the Sox' top 30 at the time, along with a lot of even worse players. (The rebuild had not started so Moncada & others weren't in the system. The Collins/Burdi/Hansen draft had not happened.)
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  #18  
Old 08-17-2019, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
When you live in spring training and minor league cities, you actually see a lot of players who get special respect and treatment because of their fathers. Bobby Clemente got a lot more attention than he deserved, especially considering that Padres coaches could tell he really didn't like playing baseball. Mike Yastrzemski Sr., who as a child got hitting instruction from Ted Williams and hung out with the Carlton Fisk-era Red Sox, made it all the way to AAA with the White Sox. He had a nice a college career and a great season at Birmingham going for him, but he had to retire when things got bad at AAA because the White Sox didn't release him. He told me that when other players go three-for-five, reporters ask them about their day while they asked him about his father. Turns out, and I learned this in the afternoon I spent with him, he wasn't really a very nice person and in fact stole his father's identity for financial gain before dying young. He never lived to see his son play for the Giants. He's not a Rookie of the Year candidate because this year in the National League there appears to be just the one.

Except for the players drafted as a favor deep in the draft, even a daughter at one point in Sox history, children of former major leaguers go higher in the draft than they otherwise might and, if international, get signed at an earlier age than other international players. They tend not to be in awe of major league ballplayers and know what they're getting into with pro ball and understand that it's a job professional demands. I asked Jerry Hairston once how he felt about his son playing for the Cubs, and he said it was great that his son had a job in baseball.

Tatis Jr. wasn't picked deep in the draft. He was signed at a young age. He was never just another player in the White Sox system. He certainly wasn't a forgotten player in the White Sox system.
So banning future all-star Drake LaRoche from the clubhouse in Spring training is destined to blow up in the Sox face?
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  #19  
Old 08-17-2019, 04:55 PM
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I'll stick as the worst trade of all time, the Cubs trading Lou Brock to the Cardinals for Ernie Broglio in 1964. We all know that Brock went on to have a HOF career while Boglio lasted 3 years with the Flubs. He had arm troubles and won 7 games and lost 19 with a ERA of .540 in those 3 years.
I played a big part in Brock's career, I was a vendor in 1962 at both Comiskey and Wrigley, so on opening day at Wrigley a few of us vendors were sitting out in the LF bleachers before the gates opened watching rookie Brock shagging fly balls and I yelled out to Lou " Good Luck" and threw him a lucky penny and he picked it up and put in his back pocket and said thanks.

Fun fact: A couple of years ago, the Stockton (California) Ports had an Ernie Broglio night where they gave away little Ernie Broglio statues, one of which is in a display case at the Stockton airport. There didn't seem to be any reason for it, except perhaps that he was turning 80 or something. I think he was living in San Jose at the time. He died in San Jose about a month ago.
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  #20  
Old 08-17-2019, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
He was not on anyone's radar when he was traded. Baseball America wrote about the trade:

"Though a shortstop currently, the 6-foot-1, 175-pounder is expected to transition to third base or the outfield as he grows, particularly to take advantage of his strong throwing arm, which is largely considered his best tool. The son of 11-year major league veteran Fernando Tatis, the younger Tatis has not seen any game action yet in his young career. BA did not rank him as one of the top 30 international prospects in 2015 or one of the White Sox top 30 prospects before this season."

Fulmer, Adams, Tilson, Engel, Fry, Covey were among the Sox' top 30 at the time, along with a lot of even worse players. (The rebuild had not started so Moncada & others weren't in the system. The Collins/Burdi/Hansen draft had not happened.)

Does that make you question Baseball America's scouting and the value of their prospect rankings? That might not be your point, but it probably should.
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  #21  
Old 08-17-2019, 05:07 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Does that make you question Baseball America's scouting and the value of their prospect rankings? That might not be your point, but it probably should.
Not at all. He hadn't played a professional game.

It does make me question San Diego's scouting. They should have held out for Fulmer.
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  #22  
Old 08-17-2019, 05:23 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Fun fact: A couple of years ago, the Stockton (California) Ports had an Ernie Broglio night where they gave away little Ernie Broglio statues, one of which is in a display case at the Stockton airport. There didn't seem to be any reason for it, except perhaps that he was turning 80 or something. I think he was living in San Jose at the time. He died in San Jose about a month ago.
In fairness to the Cubs, up to that point Broglio was a pretty good pitcher, they had no way of knowing that arm issues were in his future.

Speaking about famously bad trades, how about Nellie Fox coming to us from the Philadelphia A's for obscure catcher Joe Tipton and Billy Pierce to the Southside as we sent Aaron Robinson to the Tigers.
Some experts consider those 2 trades a couple of the worst in the history of the game.
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  #23  
Old 08-17-2019, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
In fairness to the Cubs, up to that point Broglio was a pretty good pitcher, they had no way of knowing that arm issues were in his future.

Speaking about famously bad trades, how about Nellie Fox coming to us from the Philadelphia A's for obscure catcher Joe Tipton and Billy Pierce to the Southside as we sent Aaron Robinson to the Tigers.
Some experts consider those 2 trades the worst in the history of the game.

Who are those experts? Please name names.
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  #24  
Old 08-17-2019, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post

Except for the players drafted as a favor deep in the draft, even a daughter at one point in Sox history,
If memory serves right, that GM's daughter was a softball player who had never played baseball and was on;y a 38th rounder, usually a round that rarely results in anyone going on to the big leagues.
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  #25  
Old 08-17-2019, 07:05 PM
SoxandtheCityTee SoxandtheCityTee is online now
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post
So banning future all-star Drake LaRoche from the clubhouse in Spring training is destined to blow up in the Sox face?
This made me laugh. When there's a bad game these days or I'm looking at a player I want gone already, it's easy to forget how much horribly worse those days were.

On Tatis, I will just note that he may well have grown up around baseball but he did not grow up around his father, who (according to the article cited by the OP) left the family in the DR when Jr was four. They've since reconnected.

Last edited by SoxandtheCityTee; 08-17-2019 at 07:12 PM.
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  #26  
Old 08-17-2019, 07:17 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by insp View Post
According to longtime baseball writer Murray Chass, the Tatis trade was "the worst trade of all time."

Agree? Disagree?

Another guy looking for attention. Considering Tatis is not playing right now how could anyone make any type of judgement?
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  #27  
Old 08-17-2019, 07:26 PM
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If memory serves right, that GM's daughter was a softball player who had never played baseball and was on;y a 38th rounder, usually a round that rarely results in anyone going on to the big leagues.

Mark Buehrle was a 38th-round pick two years and one month before his MLB debut with the Sox, and famously Mike Piazza was taken in the 62nd round in 1988, reportedly as a family favor. Carey Schueler was picked in the 43rd round in 1993, and the grief over the pick still pops up occasionally in these forums. Two players the White Sox drafted after Schueler were signed and made it to the majors. Most of the players in rounds 40 through 80 didn't sign, and few, mostly future early-round picks, ever made it to the majors. Frank Menechino was a White Sox 45th round pick. He ended up being selected by the A's in the Rule 5 draft and spent seven years in the majors after debuting at age 28. Mario Valdez, 48th-round pick, actually played 54 games for the White Sox in 1997, many after the infamous trade with the Giants. He had one game where he hit his only MLB home run and doubled in an 11-10 loss in Milwaukee. Later he was placed on waivers and ended up playing a few games for Oakland. Speaking of the notorious 1997 deadline trade, two players drafted but not signed by other teams after Carey Schueler's pick ended up being part of that big prospect 1997 prospect haul -- Ken Vining and Bob Howry. The White Sox could have drafted them in 1993, but they were probably considered unsignable.

With international signings who don't have draft rounds attached to them, the reports of the scouts recommending them are most relevant. In the Tatis case, I don't know what that is. I read an account at the time of the trade that said the Padres considered Tatis to be an "elite athlete." I don't know, though, if that was public relations-fluff or an honest evaluation.

At the time I thought trading anything for Shields was a bad thing and just assumed that things wouldn't work out well for the White Sox.
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  #28  
Old 08-17-2019, 07:39 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Who are those experts? Please name names.
I've been a White Sox and baseball fan for 67 years and I can't tell you how many articles have been written about those 2 trades, I meant to say 2 of the best or worst trades in the history of the game.



https://www.baseballhistorycomesaliv...in-nellie-fox/
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  #29  
Old 08-17-2019, 08:12 PM
longtimefan longtimefan is offline
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The issue was Shields stunk at the of the trade. The Padres wanted him out of their organization. Trading any young prospect, regardless of their ranking, for Shields was just plain dumb.
Hahn admitted to handling the trade but he never said it was his idea. I believe, and will never be convinced otherwise, that Kenny was the driving force behind this deal. It just smells of a KW type deal; trading prospect(s) for over-the-hill vets. I still can't get past KW trading Gio Gonzales twice and the last time for Nick Swisher. I believe Hahn did as he was ordered.
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  #30  
Old 08-17-2019, 09:29 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
I've been a White Sox and baseball fan for 67 years and I can't tell you how many articles have been written about those 2 trades, I meant to say 2 of the best or worst trades in the history of the game.



https://www.baseballhistorycomesaliv...in-nellie-fox/
The Fox trade looked good at the time, but Fox would stink in today's game.

For one thing, he'd be 92.
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