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  #31  
Old 08-13-2019, 03:15 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Collusion was the only reason Fisk stayed with the White Sox.
Even after he re-signed with the Sox, didn't Hawk want to trade him to the Yankees?
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  #32  
Old 08-13-2019, 04:10 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Even after he re-signed with the Sox, didn't Hawk want to trade him to the Yankees?

Harrelson wanted to do a lot of things. Maybe he ultimately fired LaRussa because LaRussa refused to put the first baseman behind the catcher when pitchers were issuing intentional walks.

Collusion was illegal, but it prevented teams from making stupid deals, like the Marlins' deal with Mark Buehrle. Collusion was bad and illegal. Stupid deals were bad for everyone, the team losing the player and the team signing the player, except the players signed to stupid deals and other players who benefited from arbitration based on stupid deals.

The decade where players were subject to an amateur draft and still bound to their teams through a reserve clause was legal collusion. It was also started the decline of the White Sox as one of the most competitive teams in the American League. The Sox were at their best when they weren't bidding for the best free agents but scouting the best players, pitchers in particular, who weren't attracting the big money but had the most potential. Amateur scouting is now a lost art, done mainly for draft purposes. The White Sox put good people in place at the beginning of the 1950s but, though a couple of ownership changes, probably traded away too many prospects in the 1960s. Anyway, the dynamics that made the White Sox a winning team 1951-1967 haven't really existed since.
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  #33  
Old 08-13-2019, 05:54 PM
slavko slavko is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Billy Adair was certainly an interim manager. Al Lopez resigned for health reasons in 1969. Coach Don Gutteridge replaced him. GM Ed Short was fired at the begging of September. Roland Hemond, the new GM, told Gutteridge he wouldn't be coming back in 1971. Gutteridge said he was surpirsed, but didn't need this garbage and left. Hemond, who had been hired from the Angels system, hired Angels AAA Hawaii manager Chuck Tanner, who was in the PCL postseason, and could only make it for the last 16 games of the White Sox season. Adair was named to fill the gap between Gutteridge and Tanner.

Larry Doby was not hired as an interim. Lemon was fired for cause midway through 1978, which was nothing like 1977. He was hired by the Yankees and led them to the 1978 World Series championship. Doby, baseball's second black manager, simply wasn't brought back for 1979. He had never previously managed at any level and has never managed since. Veeck appointed Kessinger to be the player-manager, a cost-saving move. After Lemon, although probably not Doby, Veeck didn't want to pay someone to sleep in the dugout. Kessinger decided he had enough, and the White Sox promoted from within their system. Harry Caray said Veeck named their AAA Iowa manager as Kessinger's replacement because Tony La Russa would work cheap.

In the 1980s, the White Sox fired Roland Hemond and replaced him with Ken Harrelson. Harrelson fired La Russa. After the White Sox fired La Russa, he won six pennants (league championships) and three World Series titles. After his season as GM, Harrelson went back to broadcasting. It's interesting that Harrelson's replacement, Larry Himes, was fired by both the Cubs and the White Sox.
Lotta great stuff here and thanks for it. I remember Veeck firing Kessinger when the manager did not pinch hit for the pitcher in the late innings of a blowout loss. That's when the call went out to LaRussa, IIRC.
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  #34  
Old 08-13-2019, 06:10 PM
TommyJohn TommyJohn is offline
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Originally Posted by slavko View Post
Lotta great stuff here and thanks for it. I remember Veeck firing Kessinger when the manager did not pinch hit for the pitcher in the late innings of a blowout loss. That's when the call went out to LaRussa, IIRC.
How would there have been a pinch-hitter for the pitcher in an American League game?
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  #35  
Old 08-13-2019, 06:25 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by TommyJohn View Post
How would there have been a pinch-hitter for the pitcher in an American League game?
They might have lost the DH because another player was injured and the DH had to replace said player in the field and then the pitcher would bat in the DH spot in the lineup, that's the only explanation I can think of.
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  #36  
Old 08-13-2019, 06:30 PM
TommyJohn TommyJohn is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
They might have lost the DH because another player was injured and the DH had to replace said player in the field and then the pitcher would bat in the DH spot in the lineup, that's the only explanation I can think of.
Maybe. I do remember that Kessinger stepped down the same day Thurman Munson died.
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  #37  
Old 08-13-2019, 06:35 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by TommyJohn View Post
Maybe. I do remember that Kessinger stepped down the same day Thurman Munson died.
I made a correction to my post. Pitcher bats in the injured players spot in the lineup.
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  #38  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:24 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
That is Reinsdorf’s fault. If he just pays full freight on Shields’s salary, Tatis is nowhere near that deal.
Hahn shouldn't have even been inquiring on Shields in the first place
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  #39  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by slavko View Post
Lotta great stuff here and thanks for it. I remember Veeck firing Kessinger when the manager did not pinch hit for the pitcher in the late innings of a blowout loss. That's when the call went out to LaRussa, IIRC.

I thought Kessinger's resignation was voluntary. Maybe that was the face put on it for the public, Kessinger having been very popular for a very long time in the city. I was actually living in Arizona at the time and only know what I read. For what it's worth, I couldn't find any pitcher with a plate appearance for the White Sox in 1979. About two weeks after LaRussa came in, Ed Farmer was in the lineup during an extra-inning game in Baltimore. Had Farmer not given up a two-out single after three walks (the last intentional), he would have been due up in the top of the 13th.
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  #40  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:32 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Assuming that you are starting the decade in 2010 (it officially started in 2011)
Yeah I'll always remember 1990 as the 2nd best season of the 80s.
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  #41  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:51 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Yeah I'll always remember 1990 as the 2nd best season of the 80s.
Just the way things are officially counted. We start with the year 1 not the year 0. There was no year zero in fact. The first decade of the CE starts with 1 CE the last year of the time before is 1 BCE. So unless the first decade was only 9 years long he's correct.

You may remember an argument about this when everyone celebrated the new millennia a year early in 2000. Not that I was complaining, I was right there celebrating with them.
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  #42  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:25 PM
slavko slavko is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
Hahn shouldn't have even been inquiring on Shields in the first place
Reinsdorf didn't want Shields, who was getting bombed and was about to be cut loose whichever way and even the semi-detached owner could see the obvious. Hahn talked him into it. And still had a job. That's what I remember. JR should try GM'ing himself. Another Charlie Finley. You know I'm joking, right?
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  #43  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:29 PM
slavko slavko is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
I made a correction to my post. Pitcher bats in the injured players spot in the lineup.
I started this and it may not have been the pitcher who was not pinch hit for. Otherwise I'm pretty firm on my memory of it.
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  #44  
Old 08-14-2019, 07:34 AM
TommyJohn TommyJohn is offline
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Originally Posted by slavko View Post
I started this and it may not have been the pitcher who was not pinch hit for. Otherwise I'm pretty firm on my memory of it.
Well, the last game Kessinger managed was a 9-0 loss to the Yankees, so something may have happened in that game.
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  #45  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:47 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by TommyJohn View Post
Well, the last game Kessinger managed was a 9-0 loss to the Yankees, so something may have happened in that game.
The game was a fairly routine loss for anyone who has followed the White Sox for half a century, a 9-1 loss, with Chet Leomon singling in a run in the ninth to avoid the shutout. Two things are noteworthy today. It was Kessinger's last game a manager. It also was Thurman Munson's last game. Ken Kravec walked Munson, who was playing first base that night, with two outs in the first. Reggie Jackson followed with a home run. Lou Piniella followed with another. Kravec struck out Munson in the top of the third, and Jim Spencer replaced him defensively in the bottom of the inning. Jerry Narron, the night's catcher and Munson's replacement as the Yankees' regular catcher, homered in the fourth. More Yankees runs were to come and the Sox did nothing against Don Hood, only picking up a late run against Jim Kaat.

Buried in this SABR story, Kessinger had lunch with Veeck the next day, said the team was playing with a bad attitude and he didn't know what to do. Kessinger's account was that he surprised Veeck by offering him to resign, effectively retiring from baseball. There was no search fro his replacement. Veeck called up LaRussa from Iowa. Maybe it started out to be an interim thing.

In a Lip interview with LaRussa for the Chicago Baseball Museum (my apologies if was something I missed it on WSI), LaRussa said the White Sox offered him the job the night. La Russa said Kessinger decided to step down. He also said he was asked co come back in 1980. So maybe Larry Doby and Tony LaRussa were quasi-interim managers given a tryout opportunity to impress Veeck.
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