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  #16  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:48 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Look forward; stop living in the past.
Good point, this rebuild so far has given us a good nucleus of ballplayers but what will make it work or fail is the caliber of free agents that we need to bring in and the money JR is willing to spend.
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Last edited by LITTLE NELL; 08-12-2019 at 04:53 PM.
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  #17  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:15 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
...

Had the Black Sox not happened, I wonder how the Sox would have fared in the '20s?
It rather depends on how the Black Sox had not happened.

If Gandil, who didn't even come back for the 1920 season, hadn't worked out the World Series fix, there is one path. Perhaps a better path would have been the White Sox not acquiring Gandil before the 1917 season.

If the White Sox had accepted money to lose the 1919 World Series and there had been no more serious talk of there being a fix than there had been for the Cubs losing to the Red Sox in 1918 (which many now believe to inspired the 1919 fix), what would happen after 1920 might have been worse, as they had gotten away with something and didn't need Gadil's influence. You might have even had Schalk or Collins going public.

I still contend that if Gavrilo Princip had not assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand outside of a Sarajevo sandwich shop in 1914, leading a German U-boat to sink the Lusitania etc., there would have been, if no Great War, no U.S. involvement timed for baseball to shorten its 1918 season, releasing every major league player (there were no farm systems) so they wouldn't have to pay them but agreeing not to treat them as free agents in 1919, engendering animosity among players that set the foundation for teams to accept money to throw the 1918 (allegedly) and 1919 World Series. Really, if the war had ended or not erupted until 1916, the 1919 baseball season would have played out differently.

What ifs don't begin and end with the players not being suspended before the last weekend of the 1920 season or the permanent ineligibility list created after the acquittals despite their confessions to the grand jury. The way history played out, aside from Buck Weaver, there is no Black Sox injustice to rail against.
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  #18  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:36 PM
fungo bat fungo bat is offline
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Agree

There is no arguing that this decade has been the pits for White Sox fans.

I'll take it a step further and speculate that this has been a snake-bitten franchise for many years with a few exceptions, the '05 title being the crowning glory after decades of frustration.

I recall the constant talk, starting back in the late 60s, of relocating this franchise to another city (Seattle, Milwaukee, Denver and it came awfully close to ending up in St. Petersburg of all places).

Like all of you, my fingers are crossed that this rebuild is going to blossom into fruition over the next few years. I wait with baited breathe because we all know this front office, and the chairman, could screw up a one-man parade. They have the track record to prove it.

Let's hope things fall into place and we can become serious contenders real soon after a decade of dismal finishes.

At the beginning of the season I picked this team to win 72 and drop 90. Unfortunately, this may become reality. I was deep down hoping for more improvement, but this team is too inconsistent, the starting pitching has been a weakness all season and the hitting tends to disappear too frequently, not to mention the defensive lapses and mental mistakes that continue to plaque them.

Better days are ahead ... I hope.
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  #19  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:42 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by fungo bat View Post
There is no arguing that this decade has been the pits for White Sox fans.

I'll take it a step further and speculate that this has been a snake-bitten franchise for many years with a few exceptions, the '05 title being the crowning glory after decades of frustration.

I recall the constant talk, starting back in the late 60s, of relocating this franchise to another city (Seattle, Milwaukee, Denver and it came awfully close to ending up in St. Petersburg of all places).

Like all of you, my fingers are crossed that this rebuild is going to blossom into fruition over the next few years. I wait with baited breathe because we all know this front office, and the chairman, could screw up a one-man parade. They have the track record to prove it.

Let's hope things fall into place and we can become serious contenders real soon after a decade of dismal finishes.

At the beginning of the season I picked this team to win 72 and drop 90. Unfortunately, this may become reality. I was deep down hoping for more improvement, but this team is too inconsistent, the starting pitching has been a weakness all season and the hitting tends to disappear too frequently, not to mention the defensive lapses and mental mistakes that continue to plaque them.

Better days are ahead ... I hope.
I thought they could have been a .500 team and they might have if not for all the guys winding up on the IL.
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  #20  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:46 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Sorry it was a nice try at a thread, but the Machado and Tatis folks hijacked it immediately and we've been down that rabbit hole a bunch of times already so I moved the thread to WTS where the others are...
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  #21  
Old 08-12-2019, 09:59 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Williams was GM for 12 seasons, of which 8 were winning seasons, 3 losing and 1 .500. Williams inherited more than Hahn did, but that doesn't explain the massive disparity in results.
The difference between Hahn and Williams is that Williams spent years scouting and Hahn spent no time scouting. Williams may not have been the best talent evaluator in the world but is miles ahead of Hahn. His vet acquisitions were the difference in a world title, e.g.
For every MacDougal and Ritchie from Williams, Hahn has 4 Keppingers and Shields.
The tear-down was finished over a year ago. Hahn needs to hit on these next acquisitions for the build part of the rebuild to succeed.

Last edited by Tragg; 08-12-2019 at 10:18 PM.
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  #22  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:13 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Williams was GM for 12 seasons, of which 8 were winning seasons, 3 losing and 1 .500. Williams inherited more than Hahn did, but that doesn't explain the massive disparity in results.
The difference between Hahn and Williams is that Williams spent years scouting and Hahn spent no time scouting. Williams may not have been the best talent evaluator in the world but is miles ahead of Hahn. His vet acquisitions were the difference in a world title, e.g.
For every MacDougal and Ritchie from Williams, Hahn has 4 Keppingers and Shields.
The tear-down was finished over a year ago. Hahn needs to hit on these next acquisitions for the build part of the rebuild to succeed.
Williams was the farm director before he came in, so he had an impact on what he was inheriting, even if it's off the farm system wasn't better then he was GM. Even moves for players like Keppinger, Ritchie and even Mackowiak looked like they could be good moves at the time. Each of them were probably better received immediately than the 2004 trades for Freddy Garcia and Jose Contreras, Keppinger and Mackowiak certainly were. Nobody even noticed when the White Sox selected Jenks off waivers before the 2005 season. Williams built a great 2005 team through a culmination of some hard work before a couple of big moves and signings after the 2004 season. It's a team that even many White Sox fans don't respect because it accomplished more than the sum of its parts, showing that a baseball team is so much more than an accumulation of statistics.

There is a tendency here to focus more on the mistakes Kenny Williams made, and there were some mistakes, while giving Rick Hahn more credit than the team has due based on its accomplishments. I get the feeling that if Kopech and Rodon never come back to be any more than inconsistent fourth and fifth starters, Hahn won't get the blame some are willing to give Williams for Danks.
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  #23  
Old 08-13-2019, 01:19 AM
DubuqueSox DubuqueSox is offline
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It's amazing how bad this team has been under Hahn's leadership. It's amazing he still is GM with this being his seventh consecutive losing season, and the club never getting more than 78 wins in any year he has been in charge. This White Sox era is so pathetic, it's almost as bad as the Matt Millen era with the Lions. Would it really hurt the organization to have someone else serve as the GM?
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  #24  
Old 08-13-2019, 04:17 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by DubuqueSox View Post
This White Sox era is so pathetic, it's almost as bad as the Matt Millen era with the Lions. Would it really hurt the organization to have someone else serve as the GM?

Would it really hurt the White Sox to have different MLB level field management and MLB pitching coaches? Maybe a new look at training philosophies and training methods?
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  #25  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:54 AM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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Williams had a bunch of seasons where the Sox weren't awful, but didn't really contend after August. So yes, if you are looking at just W-L record, Hahn is going to look much worse than KW because Hahn is intentionally tanking the team and has been for the last 3 years. This is the smarter approach.

You judge Hahn not based on what the scrubs on the 2017 - 2019 White Sox are doing, you judge Hahn based on what the 2020 - 2021 White Sox are going to do.

A lot of people at WSI simply don't understand how to be a fan of a rebuilding team. It's completely irrelevant how Alonso, Jay, etc perform, they weren't sign to win.
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  #26  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:05 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Since there's been grumbling about the lack of turnover, I went back and looked at the turnover during previous decades for the White Sox.

In the 1930s, the one decade with a worse winning percentage than this one, the Sox went through three managers (I should note that two of them were player/managers). In this decade, the Sox have had three managers. I couldn't find any info on who the general manager was back then, but I'd assume it was a combination of the manager of the team and the team's owner.

The decade that saw the most turnover for the Sox was the 1970s when there were eight managerial changes (though I don't know if guys like Bill Adair and Larry Doby were considered "interim" managers or if that term even existed back then).

For all the tumult in the dugout, the front office was actually pretty stable. Ed Short was replaced in 1970 with Stuart Holcomb and Roland Hemond and Hemond wound up taking over by himself in 1973 and managed to survive two ownership changes.

In the front office, the 1980s saw the most change with Jerry Reinsdorf going through three general managers between Hemond, Hawk and Larry Himes.
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  #27  
Old 08-13-2019, 02:09 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Since there's been grumbling about the lack of turnover, I went back and looked at the turnover during previous decades for the White Sox.

In the 1930s, the one decade with a worse winning percentage than this one, the Sox went through three managers (I should note that two of them were player/managers). In this decade, the Sox have had three managers. I couldn't find any info on who the general manager was back then, but I'd assume it was a combination of the manager of the team and the team's owner.



The decade that saw the most turnover for the Sox was the 1970s when there were eight managerial changes (though I don't know if guys like Bill Adair and Larry Doby were considered "interim" managers or if that term even existed back then).

For all the tumult in the dugout, the front office was actually pretty stable. Ed Short was replaced in 1970 with Stuart Holcomb and Roland Hemond and Hemond wound up taking over by himself in 1973 and managed to survive two ownership changes.

In the front office, the 1980s saw the most change with Jerry Reinsdorf going through three general managers between Hemond, Hawk and Larry Himes.
Billy Adair was certainly an interim manager. Al Lopez resigned for health reasons in 1969. Coach Don Gutteridge replaced him. GM Ed Short was fired at the begging of September. Roland Hemond, the new GM, told Gutteridge he wouldn't be coming back in 1971. Gutteridge said he was surpirsed, but didn't need this garbage and left. Hemond, who had been hired from the Angels system, hired Angels AAA Hawaii manager Chuck Tanner, who was in the PCL postseason, and could only make it for the last 16 games of the White Sox season. Adair was named to fill the gap between Gutteridge and Tanner.

Larry Doby was not hired as an interim. Lemon was fired for cause midway through 1978, which was nothing like 1977. He was hired by the Yankees and led them to the 1978 World Series championship. Doby, baseball's second black manager, simply wasn't brought back for 1979. He had never previously managed at any level and has never managed since. Veeck appointed Kessinger to be the player-manager, a cost-saving move. After Lemon, although probably not Doby, Veeck didn't want to pay someone to sleep in the dugout. Kessinger decided he had enough, and the White Sox promoted from within their system. Harry Caray said Veeck named their AAA Iowa manager as Kessinger's replacement because Tony La Russa would work cheap.

In the 1980s, the White Sox fired Roland Hemond and replaced him with Ken Harrelson. Harrelson fired La Russa. After the White Sox fired La Russa, he won six pennants (league championships) and three World Series titles. After his season as GM, Harrelson went back to broadcasting. It's interesting that Harrelson's replacement, Larry Himes, was fired by both the Cubs and the White Sox.
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  #28  
Old 08-13-2019, 02:21 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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The one constant we have had down through the years is that the Sox have been run on a shoestring budget with bad owners, bad GMs and bad managers. Along the way we've had some good people who knew what they were doing like Jimmy Dykes, Al Lopez, Frank Lane, Paul Richards, Roland Hemond and a few more but bad ownership has been the main culprit with some who didn't have the money and some who did have money but weren't willing to spend it.

Last edited by LITTLE NELL; 08-13-2019 at 02:30 PM.
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  #29  
Old 08-13-2019, 02:23 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Billy Adair was certainly an interim manager. Al Lopez resigned for health reasons in 1969. Coach Don Gutteridge replaced him. GM Ed Short was fired at the begging of September. Roland Hemond, the new GM, told Gutteridge he wouldn't be coming back in 1971. Gutteridge said he was surpirsed, but didn't need this garbage and left. Hemond, who had been hired from the Angels system, hired Angels AAA Hawaii manager Chuck Tanner, who was in the PCL postseason, and could only make it for the last 16 games of the White Sox season. Adair was named to fill the gap between Gutteridge and Tanner.

Larry Doby was not hired as an interim. Lemon was fired for cause midway through 1978, which was nothing like 1977. He was hired by the Yankees and led them to the 1978 World Series championship. Doby, baseball's second black manager, simply wasn't brought back for 1979. He had never previously managed at any level and has never managed since. Veeck appointed Kessinger to be the player-manager, a cost-saving move. After Lemon, although probably not Doby, Veeck didn't want to pay someone to sleep in the dugout. Kessinger decided he had enough, and the White Sox promoted from within their system. Harry Caray said Veeck named their AAA Iowa manager as Kessinger's replacement because Tony La Russa would work cheap.

In the 1980s, the White Sox fired Roland Hemond and replaced him with Ken Harrelson. Harrelson fired La Russa. After the White Sox fired La Russa, he won six pennants (league championships) and three World Series titles. After his season as GM, Harrelson went back to broadcasting. It's interesting that Harrelson's replacement, Larry Himes, was fired by both the Cubs and the White Sox.
My dad worked for the Sox back in the '70s and said that Larry Doby was one of the worst managers the Sox ever had. He'd do things like bunt a guy over to second when the team was down by six.

The Sox in the '80s were interesting. You had the initial success in '81, which culminated with the division in '83 but even though the Sox were competitive in '85 (they would have made the playoffs in the current system), you not only had Hawk coming in and blowing things up in his one season as GM but before that Reinsdorf was one of the main guys behind collusion, which probably hampered the front office's ability to put together a winning team.
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  #30  
Old 08-13-2019, 03:07 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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My dad worked for the Sox back in the '70s and said that Larry Doby was one of the worst managers the Sox ever had. He'd do things like bunt a guy over to second when the team was down by six.

The Sox in the '80s were interesting. You had the initial success in '81, which culminated with the division in '83 but even though the Sox were competitive in '85 (they would have made the playoffs in the current system), you not only had Hawk coming in and blowing things up in his one season as GM but before that Reinsdorf was one of the main guys behind collusion, which probably hampered the front office's ability to put together a winning team.

Collusion was the only reason Fisk stayed with the White Sox.
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