White Sox Interactive Forums
Minor Observations

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Minor Observations
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #271  
Old 08-30-2019, 07:10 PM
Camilo, carry-on Camilo, carry-on is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 86
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Collins, Vaughn, Walker Sheets. That's a start. There are also several pitchers who could well have solid MLB careers including Dunning, Flores, Stiever and several relievers who are developing nicely.
I find your optimism interesting. Collins has had a few good weeks, but in 1,207 minor league at bats his BA is .246. There's no denying that Vaughn has been disappointing so far with a .250 BA in 180 ab's at Kannapolis and WS and five home runs. But, it's way too early for a thumbs up or down on him. Walker is hitting .272 with an OPS of .779 in 96 games at WS. That's not bad, but it's not exceptional. Sheets is hitting .273 with an OPS of .771 at Birmingham. Those numbers are okay, but not exceptional.

Dunning has been out all season. Who knows how he'll respond to TJ surgery.
I don't think most projected Dunning as any higher than a four pre-surgery. Flores has good control. but I don't know if he has MLB stuff. Stiever's an enigma. He was bad at Kannapolis, but good at WS. Who knows?

I've been talking about position players, but Dunning and Stiever may have some potential eventually as back of the rotation guys.
Reply With Quote
  #272  
Old 08-30-2019, 08:05 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
Chief Skeptic and 2015 Preseason Predictions Contest Winner
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,091
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
"White Sox general manager Rick Hahn has talked on a few occasions about Jake Burger being able to fall out of bed and still be able to hit the ball with authority"


https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/news/ja...turn-to-action
If Jake Burger fell out of bed, he’d hit the floor with authority. And sprain something.

Last edited by A. Cavatica; 08-31-2019 at 06:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Old 08-30-2019, 08:51 PM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is offline
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 58,230
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camilo, carry-on View Post
I find your optimism interesting. Collins has had a few good weeks, but in 1,207 minor league at bats his BA is .246. There's no denying that Vaughn has been disappointing so far with a .250 BA in 180 ab's at Kannapolis and WS and five home runs. But, it's way too early for a thumbs up or down on him. Walker is hitting .272 with an OPS of .779 in 96 games at WS. That's not bad, but it's not exceptional. Sheets is hitting .273 with an OPS of .771 at Birmingham. Those numbers are okay, but not exceptional.

Dunning has been out all season. Who knows how he'll respond to TJ surgery.
I don't think most projected Dunning as any higher than a four pre-surgery. Flores has good control. but I don't know if he has MLB stuff. Stiever's an enigma. He was bad at Kannapolis, but good at WS. Who knows?

I've been talking about position players, but Dunning and Stiever may have some potential eventually as back of the rotation guys.
Check the splits on Walker and Sheets. With minor league players adapting to new levels, it's rarely about the over all stats but more about how they are progressing. Both of them have been ripping the cover off the ball since June.

It's expected that players will struggle after a promotion. What teams are looking for are how they progress. Sheets will likely start next year at AAA and Walker at AA. They've both clearly earned a promotion.

Vaughn was starting to find a groove, but then slumped back down the last week or so. I imagine he's tired too. This has been a whirlwind year and he's played way more baseball for longer uninterrupted stretches than ever before. Expect him to follow a similar trajectory to Robert this year if he lives up to his hype next year. People were worried about Robert last year this same time.

There are also other players who may well develop. Osik is absolutely wrecking it this season and he's a virtual unknown.
__________________

Riding shotgun on the Sox bandwagon since before there was an Internet...
Reply With Quote
  #274  
Old 08-30-2019, 09:06 PM
Camilo, carry-on Camilo, carry-on is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 86
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Check the splits on Walker and Sheets. With minor league players adapting to new levels, it's rarely about the over all stats but more about how they are progressing. Both of them have been ripping the cover off the ball since June.

It's expected that players will struggle after a promotion. What teams are looking for are how they progress. Sheets will likely start next year at AAA and Walker at AA. They've both clearly earned a promotion.

Vaughn was starting to find a groove, but then slumped back down the last week or so. I imagine he's tired too. This has been a whirlwind year and he's played way more baseball for longer uninterrupted stretches than ever before. Expect him to follow a similar trajectory to Robert this year if he lives up to his hype next year. People were worried about Robert last year this same time.

There are also other players who may well develop. Osik is absolutely wrecking it this season and he's a virtual unknown.
Okay. I simply don't share your optimism.
Reply With Quote
  #275  
Old 08-30-2019, 10:01 PM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 1,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camilo, carry-on View Post
I find your optimism interesting. Collins has had a few good weeks, but in 1,207 minor league at bats his BA is .246. There's no denying that Vaughn has been disappointing so far with a .250 BA in 180 ab's at Kannapolis and WS and five home runs. But, it's way too early for a thumbs up or down on him. Walker is hitting .272 with an OPS of .779 in 96 games at WS. That's not bad, but it's not exceptional. Sheets is hitting .273 with an OPS of .771 at Birmingham. Those numbers are okay, but not exceptional.

Dunning has been out all season. Who knows how he'll respond to TJ surgery.
I don't think most projected Dunning as any higher than a four pre-surgery. Flores has good control. but I don't know if he has MLB stuff. Stiever's an enigma. He was bad at Kannapolis, but good at WS. Who knows?

I've been talking about position players, but Dunning and Stiever may have some potential eventually as back of the rotation guys.
RE: Vaughn, I will deny that he's been a disappointment so far. Most baseball people pretty much throw out the stats that college hitters accumulate the year they were drafted, they've been playing in games since early February and it's pretty typical for these players to get tired. Just making it up to A+ is a pretty good accomplishment. Besides, he's held his own in his short time there with an OPS of .749.

With Sheets his numbers are skewed based on a bad start to the season, he's been fantastic since the ASB (.303/.384/.500).

With the non-Robert OFs (Basabe/Walker/Gonzelz/Adolfo/Rutherford) I don't think anyone is confident in any one of them, but the odds are pretty good that at least one of them will make it.

There will also likely be a surprise or two that emerges over the next couple years.

Regardless, the main point is that you are not in any position to claim that the only two players in the entire minor leagues system who are worth anything (I'm paraphrasing) are Robert and Madrigal. You don't know that, and if you think that statement is such a certainty then you aren't paying much attention.
Reply With Quote
  #276  
Old 08-30-2019, 11:48 PM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is offline
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 58,230
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camilo, carry-on View Post
Okay. I simply don't share your optimism.
Based on the tone of your posts since you joined the forums, that does not surprise me. Of course, I'm also one of the biggest optimists on these forums, so few are quite as upbeat as I am about the team.

I admit I've only been covering the minors this year but I think there's plenty of reason to expect this team to be WC contenders next year and be ready to make some serious playoff noise for the next several years after that. Sure. Everything could go to **** but I don't think that's very likely.
Reply With Quote
  #277  
Old 08-31-2019, 12:11 AM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is offline
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 58,230
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Charlotte lost 2-0 and managed only 3 hits. With Durham winning they are now tied for the WC slot.

Robert had a late single.
Torres had a single
Tomscha - recently called up from AA had a single

Tomshaw - also up from AA recently 4.0 IP 5 H 1 ER BB 2 K - he's been solid since returning to AAA recently after being brutal there this spring.
Fulmer 1.2 IP 1 H 1 BB 0 R 2 K
Foster 1.1 IP H BB 0 R
Minaya gave up the second run -unearned on 1 hit. Madrigal had the error.

Honestly wondering if this team is tanking on purpose so guys like Collins Robert and Madrigal might get called up. Lots of players looking for their first cup of coffee including Mercedes and Mendick. Heck Palka might get another bite at the apple but not if they're all stuck in the AAA playoffs.

Birmingham won 6-5

Gonzalez 2/3 2B 2 BB 2 R 2 SB
Basabe 3/4 2B R 2 RBI SH SB
Rutherford 1/3 2 BB R
Sheets 0/4 RBI

Parke only pitched one inning gave up 5 unearned runs on 5 H and a BB. he also had a K. Didn't come out for the second after throwing 42 pitches in the first. He would have retired the side in order but the leadoff man reached on an error then he threw a wild pitch and walked the 4th batter and the wheels came off.
Fortunately the bullpen was up to the task
Medeiros 4.0 IP 0 H 0 R BB 2 K
Johnson 2.0 IP 0H 0 R 2 K (got the W)
Dropico 2.0 IP 0 H 0 R K Save

For those scoring at home that's 8 innings of no-no bullpen pitching with only 1 BB.

Dash won 5-1 Vaughn had the night off

Walker 1/4 R
Varnell 5.2 IP 5 H 1 ER 3 BB 5 K

Burns 1.1 IP 0 H 0 BB 0 R 3 K Win - he's 24 but it's his first full season in the minors after signing as a FA out of Stanford in June 2018. Last year he only played rookie ball and they assigned him to WS to start the season where he was solid and got promoted to Birmingham where he got rocked. Went back to Kannapolis and didn't pitch great but got promoted on 8/2 and has been in 8 games already this month and has been excellent. 3-1 2.86 ERA 32 K 13 BB 34.2 IP .224 BAA 1.18 WHIP so whatever he figured out at Kannapolis carried over. He's only given up one run in his last 7 outings covering 11 IP

Perez 1.0 IP 1.0 IP 0 H 0 R 0 BB 2 K Hold

Ledo 1.0 IP 0 H 0 R BB K - another older player who has been in the minor league system since 2013 but he's still only 24 pitched all year at WS and has nice numbers 4-1 1.87 ERA 33 G 43.1 IP 40 K .232 BAA 1.27 WHIP. He's really turned it on recently over the last 10 appearances giving up 1 ER in 13.2 IP. He's just back from the IL after missing most of August.

Kannapolis won 4-3

Sosa 2/4 R
Osik 1/4 2B R
Simmons 2/4 HR (GS) 4 RBI

Martin 6.0 IP 7 H 3 ER 6 K Win
Ramsey 2.0 IP 0 H 0 R 0 BB 5 Hold
Conway 1.0 IP 0 H 0 R 0 BB 5 Save
Reply With Quote
  #278  
Old 08-31-2019, 07:30 AM
Camilo, carry-on Camilo, carry-on is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 86
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
RE: Vaughn, I will deny that he's been a disappointment so far. Most baseball people pretty much throw out the stats that college hitters accumulate the year they were drafted, they've been playing in games since early February and it's pretty typical for these players to get tired. Just making it up to A+ is a pretty good accomplishment. Besides, he's held his own in his short time there with an OPS of .749.

With Sheets his numbers are skewed based on a bad start to the season, he's been fantastic since the ASB (.303/.384/.500).

With the non-Robert OFs (Basabe/Walker/Gonzelz/Adolfo/Rutherford) I don't think anyone is confident in any one of them, but the odds are pretty good that at least one of them will make it.

There will also likely be a surprise or two that emerges over the next couple years.

Regardless, the main point is that you are not in any position to claim that the only two players in the entire minor leagues system who are worth anything (I'm paraphrasing) are Robert and Madrigal. You don't know that, and if you think that statement is such a certainty then you aren't paying much attention.

As far as Sheets is concerned, you can slice and dice a season to spin whatever you want. Is Sheets the .246 hitter at the ASB, or the .300 hitter since then? I say he's the .271 hitter for the entire season. If you want to highlight smaller sample sizes, I could say Sheets is hitting .238 in his last ten games. My goal is not to demean Sheets, it's to try objectivity in player evaluation. I will say that Sheets' 82 RBI is somewhat impressive.

As far as me not being in a position to claim anything about the talent in the Sox farm system, It's my opinion. I'm entitled to my opinion. You my disagree with my opinion, and that's fine with me.
Reply With Quote
  #279  
Old 08-31-2019, 07:38 AM
Camilo, carry-on Camilo, carry-on is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 86
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Based on the tone of your posts since you joined the forums, that does not surprise me. Of course, I'm also one of the biggest optimists on these forums, so few are quite as upbeat as I am about the team.

I admit I've only been covering the minors this year but I think there's plenty of reason to expect this team to be WC contenders next year and be ready to make some serious playoff noise for the next several years after that. Sure. Everything could go to **** but I don't think that's very likely.
If you expect the White Sox to be a .500 team, let alone a WC contender next year, they're going to have to improve their starting rotation significantly. You can't go into a season with Giolito and nobody and hope to be a WC contender. I realize this is a minor league thread, but I was just responding to your statement.
Reply With Quote
  #280  
Old 08-31-2019, 11:08 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 1,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camilo, carry-on View Post
As far as Sheets is concerned, you can slice and dice a season to spin whatever you want. Is Sheets the .246 hitter at the ASB, or the .300 hitter since then? I say he's the .271 hitter for the entire season. If you want to highlight smaller sample sizes, I could say Sheets is hitting .238 in his last ten games. My goal is not to demean Sheets, it's to try objectivity in player evaluation. I will say that Sheets' 82 RBI is somewhat impressive.

As far as me not being in a position to claim anything about the talent in the Sox farm system, It's my opinion. I'm entitled to my opinion. You my disagree with my opinion, and that's fine with me.
Youíre certainly entitled to your opinion, but donít try to pass it off as fact. Word choice matters.

Regarding Sheets (and other prospects), what youíre looking for at any level is improvement over time. Very few prospects are like Robert in that they have no noticeable dip in their stats immediately after being promoted. Sheets (and most of the Birmingham team, actually) struggled earlier in the year, but heís made adjustments and has become a better hitter for it. Half a season is not a small sample size.
Reply With Quote
  #281  
Old 08-31-2019, 11:20 AM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
Chief Skeptic and 2015 Preseason Predictions Contest Winner
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,091
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camilo, carry-on View Post
I find your optimism interesting. Collins has had a few good weeks, but in 1,207 minor league at bats his BA is .246.
Batting average doesnít tell the whole story, with Collins in particular.
Reply With Quote
  #282  
Old 08-31-2019, 11:43 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 11,810
Default

We donít even know what these guys are working on in the minors, so we canít really tell what to make of numbers that are good in one area and bad in another. Good numbers across the board and bad numbers across the board can speak for themselves, but what if guys are breaking hitting down to smaller component tasks (like Sheets supposedly did) or focusing on one pitch over another? What if they are undergoing a complete mechanical rebuild?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsemaster Fred
This is the major leagues so get it how you live and letís fight tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #283  
Old 08-31-2019, 12:31 PM
Camilo, carry-on Camilo, carry-on is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 86
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
Youíre certainly entitled to your opinion, but donít try to pass it off as fact. Word choice matters.

Regarding Sheets (and other prospects), what youíre looking for at any level is improvement over time. Very few prospects are like Robert in that they have no noticeable dip in their stats immediately after being promoted. Sheets (and most of the Birmingham team, actually) struggled earlier in the year, but heís made adjustments and has become a better hitter for it. Half a season is not a small sample size.
By definition, opinions are not provable, therefore not factual. Not sure what you're saying.

Okay, as far as Sheets is concerned, let's say he gets promoted to Charlotte next spring. And, let's say he hits .300 before their all-star break, and .240 after the break. Will you say he had a real good first half of the season and then conjure up some reason(s) for the poor 2nd half?

I have no ax to grind regarding Sheets. I hope he succeeds. I'm simply trying to provide some element of realism to what are predominately optimistic viewpoints here.
Reply With Quote
  #284  
Old 08-31-2019, 12:40 PM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is offline
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 58,230
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camilo, carry-on View Post
By definition, opinions are not provable, therefore not factual. Not sure what you're saying.

Okay, as far as Sheets is concerned, let's say he gets promoted to Charlotte next spring. And, let's say he hits .300 before their all-star break, and .240 after the break. Will you say he had a real good first half of the season and then conjure up some reason(s) for the poor 2nd half?

I have no ax to grind regarding Sheets. I hope he succeeds. I'm simply trying to provide some element of realism to what are predominately optimistic viewpoints here.
Regression over the course of a season is different than progression. Sheets and Walker both got better - substantially better which is what you want and expect from high ceiling prospects.

You are ignoring that while throwing out some hypothetical for next season in an attempt to discredit the positive progress these players have made doesn't make much sense.

Edit: This isn't the majors. Season long stats are not as important in the minors as players work on things to get better. If they actually do get better that's a good thing.
Reply With Quote
  #285  
Old 08-31-2019, 02:34 PM
Camilo, carry-on Camilo, carry-on is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 86
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Regression over the course of a season is different than progression. Sheets and Walker both got better - substantially better which is what you want and expect from high ceiling prospects.

You are ignoring that while throwing out some hypothetical for next season in an attempt to discredit the positive progress these players have made doesn't make much sense.

Edit: This isn't the majors. Season long stats are not as important in the minors as players work on things to get better. If they actually do get better that's a good thing.
I'm not sure Walker "got better - substantially better". In 20 games at Kannapolis earlier this year Walker hit a terrific .365 warranting a promotion to Winston-Salem. In 97 games at W-S he's hitting .272, not bad, but not exceptional. At the all-star break at W-S Walker was hitting .254 with an OPS of .758. His current OPS is .776.

Over the years hundreds of minor league players have shown improvement for half a season, and then they regress. It's common.

Again, I wish Walker and Sheets great success. In fact, I think Walker may have a topside potential of Aaron Rowand-like comps. I'm just not as seemingly assured of the ultimate ML success of some of these prospects.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:48 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.