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  #31  
Old 09-24-2018, 04:19 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry
This was a development year for Yo Yo. But for the Red Sox using up some of his options, he would have been in Charlotte and some people here would have been pining for him and Eloy. If the Sox sent him to Charlotte for development and he somehow did not make the 25 man roster next year, he would be available for another team to grab him off waivers. Right now, it is my understanding, the Sox have preserved his final option in case he needs a trip to Charlotte next year.

Same thing applies to Giolito except it was the Nats and not the BoSox who used up some of his options.
I don’t know where this misconception comes from, but the Red Sox’s handling of Moncada had no bearing whatsoever on when the White Sox chose to promote him. He could have spent all of 2018 and all of 2019 in the minors if the front office wanted that to happen.
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  #32  
Old 09-24-2018, 04:29 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
Robin Ventura, If there was a WSI when he broke in, some here would have shot him to save us from him.

Jose Altuve. If he was with the Sox and not Stros his first two years, some here would have called him The Complete Bust.
To be fair, Ventura was the No. 15 prospect and Altuve never cracked the Top 100.
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  #33  
Old 09-24-2018, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
To be fair, Ventura was the No. 15 prospect and Altuve never cracked the Top 100.
So, a non-100 prospect became the stud of studs in MLB???? That never happens!
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  #34  
Old 09-24-2018, 05:42 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Camilo, carry-on View Post
I was expecting Abreu-like offensive numbers, .300+. 30+, 100+. I'm of the belief that if you're real good, a natural, you're good right away.
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
That's an improvement, but he was acquired to be an .850-.950 OPS hitter.
Your expectations are that he would produce like a Hall of Famer in his first full season in the majors?

I just looked up the numbers of the top 10 second baseman of all time. The numbers you say you expect Moncada to produce in his first full season would over a career put a second baseman in the company of Nap Lajoie, Eddie Collins, Jackie Robinson, and Robinson Cano. Better than Ryne Sandberg and Rod Carew, and below only Rogers Hornsby.

If so, you need to adjust your expectations, if only because switch hitters always take longer to develop (as do catchers).

Sale’s best season - this year - has produced 6.7 WAR. He’s on course to make the Hall of Fame. But if Moncada develops into a 4 WAR player, and Kopech a 4 WAR pitcher, the trade is a win for us, and anything Basabe provides above replacement level only increases the size of the win.

I get “moving the goalposts,” but some of this hyperbole is the equivalent of putting the goal posts above Soldier Field’s scoreboard, narrowing them by half, and making the kicker kick blindfolded during a hurricane.
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  #35  
Old 09-24-2018, 06:18 PM
wxkid23 wxkid23 is offline
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
Robin Ventura, If there was a WSI when he broke in, some here would have shot him to save us from him.

Jose Altuve. If he was with the Sox and not Stros his first two years, some here would have called him The Complete Bust.
I guess I see more hope in Jose's first two years. Around 290,30+ sb. AS his 2nd year..... Seriously? Better than what yoyo is providing, which is disappointment any way you cut it. Put lipstick on a pig all you want, it's still a pig. I'm not giving up on him, but the chances he's going to be what we expected has decreased massively.
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  #36  
Old 09-24-2018, 06:37 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is online now
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Anticipation...

It's worth the wait.

https://youtu.be/uoLoyg3JKRQ

Bring on 2019!
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  #37  
Old 09-24-2018, 06:41 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Your expectations are that he would produce like a Hall of Famer in his first full season in the majors?.
At some point. And .850-.950 OPS, not a Hall of Famer
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  #38  
Old 09-24-2018, 06:44 PM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by wxkid23 View Post
I guess I see more hope in Jose's first two years. Around 290,30+ sb. AS his 2nd year..... Seriously? Better than what yoyo is providing, which is disappointment any way you cut it. Put lipstick on a pig all you want, it's still a pig. I'm not giving up on him, but the chances he's going to be what we expected has decreased massively.
How old was Abreu during his rookie year?
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  #39  
Old 09-24-2018, 07:03 PM
wxkid23 wxkid23 is offline
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Originally Posted by asindc View Post
How old was Abreu during his rookie year?
I'm talking about Altuve. Not our Jose, we all know he was an old man lol. And when did he steal 30 bags? Haha, I wish :p
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  #40  
Old 09-24-2018, 07:16 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
At some point. And .850-.950 OPS, not a Hall of Famer
The second basemen I listed had career OPS in that neighborhood. At that position, with longevity, that kind of OPS puts a player in the HOF.
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  #41  
Old 09-24-2018, 08:46 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post

Sale’s best season - this year - has produced 6.7 WAR. He’s on course to make the Hall of Fame. But if Moncada develops into a 4 WAR player, and Kopech a 4 WAR pitcher, the trade is a win for us, and anything Basabe provides above replacement level only increases the size of the win.

I get “moving the goalposts,” but some of this hyperbole is the equivalent of putting the goal posts above Soldier Field’s scoreboard, narrowing them by half, and making the kicker kick blindfolded during a hurricane.
Maybe but no likely according to this writer. https://www.southsidesox.com/2018/9/...michael-kopech
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  #42  
Old 09-24-2018, 09:03 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post

Sale’s best season - this year - has produced 6.7 WAR. He’s on course to make the Hall of Fame. But if Moncada develops into a 4 WAR player, and Kopech a 4 WAR pitcher, the trade is a win for us, and anything Basabe provides above replacement level only increases the size of the win.
That's debatable. The preference of a single 6.7 WAR player over 2 4s depends on roster makeup, strengths/weaknesses, etc. The 2 4s take up 2 roster spots. You definitely just can't sum WARs to measure a trade.
I haven't criticized Moncada and have no intention doing so - my only comment has been to stick with the good plate discipline, don't pick up bad habits in reaction to the tight strike zone, and work on fouling off close pitches. He'll be good; he was acquired to be great, but he'll be at least good.
But at some point, ONE of these guys has to break out (actually about 5 of them need to). None has except maybe Lopez sort of. We can see Jiminez and Kopech so close; people can wichcast Burdi. But it needs to happen.

Last edited by Tragg; 09-24-2018 at 09:09 PM.
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  #43  
Old 09-24-2018, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
That's an improvement, but he was acquired to be an .850-.950 OPS hitter.
In his first full season in the majors at age 23?
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  #44  
Old 09-25-2018, 04:19 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
In his first full season in the majors at age 23?
At 22, Adam Dunn had an .854 OPS in his first full season, starting 150 games in the field and appearing in all but four of the Reds' games. He wasn't a great hitter. He hit less than .250 and struck out way too much. He would have better seasons, but he never hit .270. His walk-inflated OPS masked the offensive vulnerabilities his high strikeout rate should have hinted at, especially when he went on to strike out more frequently in subsequent years.

Dunn would go on to display some power for the Reds, and even with the White Sox, albeit less frequently, but he never lived up to expectations he inspired early on. Maybe if he had played in an era where people cared about strikeouts, he would have worked to become a better hitter with a few less home runs.

Going back to the Red Sox, I have never believed in Moncada. I don't believe that playing a few good games at the end of the season means he's primed to break out in 2019 any more than I'm inspired by 12 consecutive scoreless innings from Dylan Covey in his two most recent September starts. The highly touted young players who do poorly at 23 and never develop into impact players outnumber those that turn it around. And they're easier to forget. Certainly if Jimenez next year at 22 has the sort of year Dunn had at 22, let alone the kind of season Moncada has had at 23, there would be overwhelming disappointment from White Sox fans, regardless of his OPS.

I understand the hope. But I don't believe Moncada has justified the optimism.
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  #45  
Old 09-25-2018, 08:06 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Your expectations are that he would produce like a Hall of Famer in his first full season in the majors?

I just looked up the numbers of the top 10 second baseman of all time. The numbers you say you expect Moncada to produce in his first full season would over a career put a second baseman in the company of Nap Lajoie, Eddie Collins, Jackie Robinson, and Robinson Cano. Better than Ryne Sandberg and Rod Carew, and below only Rogers Hornsby.

If so, you need to adjust your expectations, if only because switch hitters always take longer to develop (as do catchers).

Sale’s best season - this year - has produced 6.7 WAR. He’s on course to make the Hall of Fame. But if Moncada develops into a 4 WAR player, and Kopech a 4 WAR pitcher, the trade is a win for us, and anything Basabe provides above replacement level only increases the size of the win.

I get “moving the goalposts,” but some of this hyperbole is the equivalent of putting the goal posts above Soldier Field’s scoreboard, narrowing them by half, and making the kicker kick blindfolded during a hurricane.

It's not only moving the goalposts, but it's also declaring the game "over" in the 2nd quarter.
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