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  #271  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:52 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by mzh View Post
A player does not change who he is because of 120 at bats in the low minors.

I guarantee that if you ask virtually anybody who actually evaluates baseball players for a living, they will agree that the results of 30 games in the low minors put up by a college draftee after a full season and switching from metal to wood are among some of the most meaningless stats in baseball. Furthermore, Madrigal was coming off a wrist injury which is a pretty good reason for a power outage, but we're not really looking for reasonable explanations here, are we?

Context is a very valuable thing, dude. If a kid like Robert has some bad stats, but if he still looks like the same player he was before (and by all accounts, he does) you know he was battling injuries all year, and was playing and living in a foreign country for the first time at age 20, you might conclude that you actually don't have to worry about 100 ABs worth of not great numbers.

So you know what, in a vacuum, you're right. They did struggle a little. But the reality of the situation is that struggling in a month's worth of games in A ball, in combination with the circumstances listed above, really doesn't matter very much and doesn't change who they are as players.
Nope. Stop trying to spoil the narrative with a reasonable analysis.
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  #272  
Old 10-18-2018, 12:01 PM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Madrigal should blister rookie ball - he didn't.
Yes it's early; it's not permanent or etched in stone.
But it is struggling.
Ö....and this is why teams discount what happens to players drafted out of college in their immediate year in the minors. It's called fatigue from playing a ton of games before they report to the minors thanks to playing in a full college regular season and often playoffs and college world series.

The only real relevant number for Madrigal at this point is how hard it was to strike him out.
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  #273  
Old 10-18-2018, 04:49 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry
Ö....and this is why teams discount what happens to players drafted out of college in their immediate year in the minors. It's called fatigue from playing a ton of games before they report to the minors thanks to playing in a full college regular season and often playoffs and college world series.

The only real relevant number for Madrigal at this point is how hard it was to strike him out.
Except Madrigal didnít play a full college season. He played in only 42 of Oregon Stateís 78 games.
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  #274  
Old 10-18-2018, 05:11 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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In general, I wouldn't overreact to a prospect's first season after being drafted- so many variables involved- transitioning from HS/college ball, wooden bats, playing every day, travel, relocating, etc.

Let them get through their first summer healthy, set up their offseason program, get their legs underneath them and get back at it in spring training.
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  #275  
Old 10-18-2018, 06:39 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
In general, I wouldn't overreact to a prospect's first season after being drafted- so many variables involved- transitioning from HS/college ball, wooden bats, playing every day, travel, relocating, etc.

Let them get through their first summer healthy, set up their offseason program, get their legs underneath them and get back at it in spring training.
You mean we have to wait a whole 6 months or more before criticizing Madrigal's performance? Nonsense!

Look at the slash lines of the position players drafted right after Madrigal. Those guys didn't exactly set the world on fire either....and in Rookie or Low A ball.

Complaining about Madrigal already is just the same old "our team sucks at everything" talk.
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  #276  
Old 10-18-2018, 06:43 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Robert: 0 homers; .694 OPS overall, including 123 high A at bats
Madrigal: 0 homers, .701 OPS overall, 98 high A at bats

Madrigal should blister rookie ball - he didn't.
Yes it's early; it's not permanent or etched in stone.
But it is struggling.
Madrigal played in High A, not rookie ball. Robert has only had one season stateside. That's not "perpetual". I'm not sure why you're so bent on twisting the facts to paint Sox prospects in the worst possible light.

Like I said before

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STRETCH!

Last edited by Hitmen77; 10-18-2018 at 07:12 PM. Reason: grammatical fix
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  #277  
Old 10-19-2018, 12:46 AM
shes shes is offline
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The fact that Madrigal doesn't have K issues, runs the bases well, and plays stellar D already places him a cut above the average prospect just hitting the pro level. If his bat plays the way most people think it will (say, Juan Pierre with 50% more XBH) then he's a very good player, if not your typical modern-day kind of stud.
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  #278  
Old 10-19-2018, 01:56 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by shes View Post
The fact that Madrigal doesn't have K issues, runs the bases well, and plays stellar D already places him a cut above the average prospect just hitting the pro level. If his bat plays the way most people think it will (say, Juan Pierre with 50% more XBH) then he's a very good player, if not your typical modern-day kind of stud.

Yeah, some aspects of his game looked very impressive this year even if other other aspects of his game (XBH rate) needs improvement.



Here's one write-up that summarizes Madrigal's pro debut as follows:
https://www.minorleagueball.com/2018...e-hype-in-2018


Quote:
What can you say about Nick Madrigal? The guy just hits. He hit at Oregon State. He hit at Kannapolis and he hit at Winston-Salem. All while hardly striking out. He can manage the strike zone and get the bat on the ball, and showed that quickly in his pro debut. Iím curious to see how he develops at the higher levels, but he made a sound first impression.
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  #279  
Old 10-19-2018, 02:45 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
Yeah, some aspects of his game looked very impressive this year even if other other aspects of his game (XBH rate) needs improvement.



Here's one write-up that summarizes Madrigal's pro debut as follows:
https://www.minorleagueball.com/2018...e-hype-in-2018
It's always been said that in game power is the last thing to develop for hitters. Seems like that is the only thing Nick has left to tap into. Would love for him to end up being an 8-10 HR and 35 doubles guy with his BA .290-.300 and 25 SB. Very doable for him at this point, and would profile well at either 2b or SS.
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  #280  
Old 10-19-2018, 04:44 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres
It's always been said that in game power is the last thing to develop for hitters. Seems like that is the only thing Nick has left to tap into. Would love for him to end up being an 8-10 HR and 35 doubles guy with his BA .290-.300 and 25 SB. Very doable for him at this point, and would profile well at either 2b or SS.
Exactly right. A guy like Madrigal can always start ďselling outĒ for more power after he develops his other traits, like command of the strike zone and the ability hit outside pitches to the opposite field with authority. Right now, the other parts of his game look good enough to keep him right on schedule with regards to minor league promotions.

I would figure Madrigalís ETA at mid-April 2021, once the calendar gets to the point where he canít accrue a full year of service time. However, if he keeps showing a preternatural ability to avoid strikeouts at every level and the team is competitive, he could push that ETA to the middle of 2020, once the calendar gets to the point where he canít qualify for a Super Two arbitration year.
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  #281  
Old 10-20-2018, 05:36 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Yeah in principle I totally agree, it would be great if everyone gave max effort on every play. I'm just saying that's not really how it works, for better or for worse. So I don't think it's a very good reason to not go after a true superstar unless there's evidence that kind of laxness pervades their overall work habits, which as far as I know isn't the case with Machado. Bryce Harper dogs it down the line his fair share and by all accounts his work ethic is impeccable.

All that being said, those slides last night were nasty as hell, and if it weren't the postseason he'd probably have some well earned retaliation coming his way.
  • Signing players to a long term contract for big money is asking for trouble.
  • Signing guys that do not hustle and the boast about it is asking for trouble.
  • Signing guys that have little to no regard for the safety of their fellow players is asking for trouble.

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I just donít think thatís true. Jogging down the line on a ball thatís an out 99% of the time means a player has a bad work ethic even if he works his ass off and is consistently trying to get better? Attitude and work ethic arenít necessarily the same thing.
There is no better example of having a poor work ethic than dogging it in games. It strikes right at the heart of that player's professionalism.
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  #282  
Old 10-20-2018, 11:23 AM
Tragg Tragg is online now
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
It's always been said that in game power is the last thing to develop for hitters. Seems like that is the only thing Nick has left to tap into. Would love for him to end up being an 8-10 HR and 35 doubles guy with his BA .290-.300 and 25 SB. Very doable for him at this point, and would profile well at either 2b or SS.
That's doable...and that puts him in the high .700s OPS
Solid
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  #283  
Old 10-20-2018, 01:33 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
  • Signing players to a long term contract for big money is asking for trouble.
  • Signing guys that do not hustle and the boast about it is asking for trouble.
  • Signing guys that have little to no regard for the safety of their fellow players is asking for trouble.
If you want to build a winning team without giving big contracts to All-Star caliber players who deserve them and also limiting yourself to people who have never made a questionable slide, you're not gonna build a winning team.


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There is no better example of having a poor work ethic than dogging it in games. It strikes right at the heart of that player's professionalism.
Okay, you said this before, but can you respond to my point? Bryce Harper takes plenty of plays off and he's known to be a diligent, hard worker when it comes to actually getting better at baseball. What's more important?
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  #284  
Old 10-20-2018, 01:36 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
That's doable...and that puts him in the high .700s OPS
Solid
Plus, not a lot of homers doesn't necessarily mean no power. With his speed and hitting ability, you could very well see .300 with only 10 HR but also 30-40 doubles and a good handful of triples. Think Lorenzo Cain but at second base.
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  #285  
Old 10-20-2018, 08:47 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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If you want to build a winning team without giving big contracts to All-Star caliber players who deserve them and also limiting yourself to people who have never made a questionable slide, you're not gonna build a winning team.
Openly admitting laziness; sweeping a players leg? You build winners with character like that?

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Originally Posted by mzh View Post
Okay, you said this before, but can you respond to my point? Bryce Harper takes plenty of plays off and he's known to be a diligent, hard worker when it comes to actually getting better at baseball. What's more important?
I want people that perform to the best of their ability no matter how they feel physically. He's entitles to dogging it because he works out in the winter?

After a game where J.T. Realmuto won the game Harper responded: https://sports.yahoo.com/bryce-harpe...052201197.html

You want to make player decisions? Buy your own team. Try running out ground balls and not huffing and puffing when your manager calls you on it.


I want a professional: someone that keeps his mouth shut in public and leads by example. At this point in his career, Harper falls short.
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