White Sox Interactive Forums
What's The Score?

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > What's The Score?
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #346  
Old 07-20-2018, 11:25 AM
blurry blurry is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 431
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitesoxfan1986 View Post
Yep. the point of SABR is to tell you things about a player that the eye test can't. They must be used in tandem. I like that a lot of things are quantifiable that didn't used to be. Before, you could have arguments about which player was better and there was nothing to quantify it. WAR ends that.
They are used in tandem. Some old ways were scrapped in the process, and some new ways ended up not being as useful as some proclaimed them to be. But metrics and advanced stats help and supplement the eye test for scouts and front offices. That's not up for debate and too many people think this is a black and white matter.
  #347  
Old 07-20-2018, 12:18 PM
kobo kobo is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Lake in the Hills
Posts: 5,496
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
MZH: I played some college ball as well in the SEC so I get where you are coming from too.

I think the best way to answer the question is this. What is best for the game?

By that I mean just look at the All-Star Game. 10 home runs...a ton of strikeouts...and very little in between. In fact the AP recap story on the game spent as much time lambasting the "three outcome" approach as it did recapping what actually happened. "Action" in baseball is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. The "Big Nate" comic strip today ironically dealt with this issue.

Mathematically, statistically the stat folks may be right on the money, the best way to score is to swing hard and hope to hit the ball 672 1/2 feet.

But the optics of that approach are driving fans away from the game (there are other factors as well of course, none the least of which is that like with the NBA only a small handful of teams can actually hope to win something. The rest are completely SOL) and in my opinion actually causing more harm than "good."

I've always advocated for a balanced approach, again the 2005 White Sox are a perfect example in "modern" times. Not only did they win a lot but they were entertaining. Finding different ways to score, different ways to put pressure on a defense, doing different things.

I don't know if I can explain properly things that really can't be defined. Maybe "boring" is a good word for today's game, couple that with the Sox being brutally awful the past 11 seasons (for the most part) and it's a bad mix to me. And if the "numbers" are to be believed a lot of fans are thinking the same thing given the attendance drop in baseball.

A lot of this I think IS and WAS caused by the statistical analytics approach to baseball. It wasn't those folks intentions of course, they were looking for an edge. But now it's gone to far to an extreme, causing harm to the game and rules have to be put in place (such as "no shifts," or "limited shifts" for one example) to return the game back more to a balanced approach and one fans will enjoy more.

By the way thanks for your reply, it was well done.

Now excuse me, I've got to out out and practice hitting the other way / behind the runner! (Smile...)
1. There is no way you can prove that stats and statistical minded analysis of the game is driving fans away from the game. And what does that even mean? How does one define driving fans away from the game? Are you using the decrease in attendance as the basis? If so then I would argue there are other factors (mainly cost of attending a game and cost of concessions) that play more of a part than people analyzing and using statistics.


2. Using statistics to gain an edge is not causing any rule changes to the game. There is vocal minority right now complaining about the shift and rules changes. That has nothing to do with baseball and everything to do with self-interest. I fail to see how using a shift in baseball is causing harm to the game. As baseball fans we are always talking about how players need to make adjustments when the league figures them out. That same thinking needs to be applied to teams who use defensive shifts.


This "stats vs how the game was played" argument tends to devolve like a political discussion. It's one side vs another with no compromise. That's a bunch of crap. Statistical analysis and the use of Saber metrics is just one way to analyze the game. It adds to discussion, it adds depth to what is happening on the field and if you don't want to follow/believe in that analysis then don't. It's that simple. Baseball changes. There have always been different eras of baseball. It's what makes the sport great. Right now this is a different era and most of the complaining about this era seems to be coming from older folks.
  #348  
Old 07-20-2018, 12:45 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 33,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kobo View Post
1. There is no way you can prove that stats and statistical minded analysis of the game is driving fans away from the game. And what does that even mean? How does one define driving fans away from the game? Are you using the decrease in attendance as the basis? If so then I would argue there are other factors (mainly cost of attending a game and cost of concessions) that play more of a part than people analyzing and using statistics.
As I stated there are other factors, no one is claiming it is the only reason but as stated (again...) when you begin to see the amount of material now coming out in print and on TV basically saying "baseball is having problems with the three outcome approach" and when folks like Mohoney are saying that philosophy is currently en vogue in the game (and I take his word on such things) driven by statistical analysis that it has the highest percentage to score that tells me there is something going on. Some people are saying the game is now "boring" because of it.

That's the reason I proposed to SABR last night a suggestion that doing some sort of a study or story to investigate this in more depth may be worthwhile.

If that makes me "old" well too bad. I like to see a little more in a game than home run, strike out or walk. There's a lot more to the game that that.

Last edited by Lip Man 1; 07-20-2018 at 01:07 PM.
  #349  
Old 07-20-2018, 01:55 PM
DumpJerry's Avatar
DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
Tom Feargal Hagen
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The hearts and minds of Sox fans on 10-26-05
Posts: 27,681
Default

I thought this thread was about the Cubs.

This is the Mother of all hijacks.
__________________


2020....2020.....2020....2020....2020.....
  #350  
Old 07-20-2018, 03:40 PM
TomC727 TomC727 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: South Suburbs
Posts: 650
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
I thought this thread was about the Cubs.

This is the Mother of all hijacks.
Thank you.
__________________
GO WHITE SOX


CUBS SUCK

White Sox Fans, knowing more about baseball and the cubs than their own fans since 1901.
  #351  
Old 07-20-2018, 04:28 PM
central44 central44 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,113
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kobo View Post

2. Using statistics to gain an edge is not causing any rule changes to the game. There is vocal minority right now complaining about the shift and rules changes. That has nothing to do with baseball and everything to do with self-interest. I fail to see how using a shift in baseball is causing harm to the game. As baseball fans we are always talking about how players need to make adjustments when the league figures them out. That same thinking needs to be applied to teams who use defensive shifts.
I used to be 100% with this, until that ESPN article about a week or two ago when players described why they have such a difficult time with the shift. One of the things that stood out to me was this attitude from players of "okay, so a power hitter went the other way against the shift. So instead of doing what he's best at--hitting a home run--we've managed to reduce him to a pure singles hitter. That's awesome for us, even if he goes 4-4 with 4 singles it's better than 2-4 with a double and a home run."

So if I'm someone like Jim Thome, for example--a big, plodding, power bat--do I want to be reduced to a singles hitter who jams up the basepaths knowing I'm giving the defense exactly what it wants? Or am I going to try twice as hard to justify my paycheck by hitting over the top of the shift (and most likely striking out a lot more, as a result).

I don't know how I feel about it. It's a great strategy but I don't know that it's really within the spirit of the game--yet is that a good enough reason for a drastic rule change? The closest comp I can think of is when the NBA widened the lane so Wilt Chamberlain couldn't just stand under the basket and dunk.
  #352  
Old 07-20-2018, 04:44 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sebring Florida
Posts: 10,490
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
I thought this thread was about the Cubs.

This is the Mother of all hijacks.
Let's get back to the thread, Cardinals are clobbering the Flubs today 12-1, bottom of the 5th.
__________________
Batting in the second position for the White Sox, number 2, the second baseman Nelson Fox.
  #353  
Old 07-20-2018, 05:26 PM
TomC727 TomC727 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: South Suburbs
Posts: 650
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
Let's get back to the thread, Cardinals are clobbering the Flubs today 12-1, bottom of the 5th.
16-1 now.

Lester was rocked. 3IP, 7H, 8R, 8ER, 5BB.
  #354  
Old 07-20-2018, 06:42 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 33,202
Default

Some good news today anyway!
  #355  
Old 07-20-2018, 06:43 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 33,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by central44 View Post
The closest comp I can think of is when the NBA widened the lane so Wilt Chamberlain couldn't just stand under the basket and dunk.
They actually also changed another rule because of Wilt. It used to be legal to throw an inbounds pass from the baseline OVER the backboard. Wilt would simply jump up, catch and slam the ball through the basket.
  #356  
Old 07-20-2018, 07:08 PM
thomas35forever's Avatar
thomas35forever thomas35forever is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Lombard
Posts: 26,982
Default

Consider the following Facebook post that appeared on my timeline today:
Quote:
Think about this. Cubs are down 4-18 in the 8th inning on a rainy day. Still a decent number of people in the crowd, cheering loudly on a 3-2 count. The White Sox canít even get that atmosphere when theyíre good and winning 😂
Lot of nerve. And somehow, others are still pointing out the low TV ratings. People just can't resist.
__________________
Consistency lost
If found, please return to 333 W. 35th Street, Chicago. Generous reward offered.
  #357  
Old 07-20-2018, 07:27 PM
MtGrnwdSoxFan MtGrnwdSoxFan is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mount Greenwood. No, really?
Posts: 4,190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomas35forever View Post
Consider the following Facebook post that appeared on my timeline today:

Lot of nerve. And somehow, others are still pointing out the low TV ratings. People just can't resist.
But the Cubs fans don't care about the Sox! They'll tell you themselves!!
__________________
2017 Attendance Record: 0-0

Last Game: N/A
Next Game: Hopefully around the beginning of May
Nacho Helmet Count: 0

- 2011 WSI H2H2 Keeper League Runner-up (Relatively Decent)
  #358  
Old 07-20-2018, 09:55 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
The Blind Squirrel that finally found an acorn.
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Nw Side
Posts: 10,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by central44 View Post

The closest comp I can think of is when the NBA widened the lane so Wilt Chamberlain couldn't just stand under the basket and dunk.

Actually it was turning the key into a lane.
  #359  
Old 07-22-2018, 04:42 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 9,607
Default

The Cardinals suck.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsemaster Fred
This is the major leagues so get it how you live and letís fight tomorrow.
  #360  
Old 07-22-2018, 04:59 PM
TomC727 TomC727 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: South Suburbs
Posts: 650
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
The Cardinals suck.
They sure do, along with the Brewers complete meltdown, the northside team can put the rest of the regular season on cruise-control.
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:51 PM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.