White Sox Interactive Forums
Minor Observations

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Minor Observations
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-11-2017, 12:01 AM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 14,486
Default Zack Burdi and Luis Robert now hurt too

The Burdi one went under the radar today, did see it from a few folks in the afternoon. Including Brian Bilek here:

https://twitter.com/BrianBilek_/stat...33345085992960


Luis Robert was a few days ago:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...707-story.html


The amount of injuries going on here is getting a bit alarming.

Alex Call has lost the entire first half of the season so far. Tilson we already know is Mr Glass.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-11-2017, 04:53 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Western Suburbs
Posts: 2,877
Default

The WSJ last week has a nice article on pitching injuries. Most of it centered on pitchers overthrowing and not pitching.
__________________
“There were a few hard rules, but everybody was unique, and he understood that. George’s great strength was he didn’t overcoach. There’s no place for panic on the mound.” - Jim Palmer on George Bamberger “Arms and the man,” Sports Illustrated, April 19, 2004
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-11-2017, 03:51 PM
anewman35 anewman35 is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Buffalo Grove, IL
Posts: 3,306
Default

So it's just a theory, maybe it's way wrong - but maybe it just seems like we have more injuries in the minors this year because we're paying way more attention to the minors this year? I'm not going to do this, don't care enough, but I'd be interested to see how this year compares to the number of injuries of top prospects in other years...
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-11-2017, 11:44 PM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 17,832
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
The WSJ last week has a nice article on pitching injuries. Most of it centered on pitchers overthrowing and not pitching.
I've wondered about that. With the emphasis moving away from getting hitters out by messing up their timing to striking hitters out and "fielder independent pitching," there seems to be more pitching injuries in the minor leagues. The Modesto Nuts (California League affiliate of the Mariners) has a couple of pitchers on the disabled list, now and at any given time. And Brian Bannister, who recently beat Madison Bumgarner and San Jose in a rehab start, had just come off the 60-day DL.

Pitchers are throwing harder than they used to. The average major league fastball is about 5 mph quicker than it was a couple of decades ago. The problem is that major league hitters are hitting average fastballs with more authority than they did a couple of decades ago.

While it is true that part of the reason there are more injuries today is that sports medicine is stricter about diagnosing injury, pitchers are having to work harder to get their outs. It wouldn't surprise me if it is shortening some careers.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-12-2017, 01:22 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is online now
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the heart of Dixie
Posts: 5,278
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
I've wondered about that. With the emphasis moving away from getting hitters out by messing up their timing to striking hitters out and "fielder independent pitching," there seems to be more pitching injuries in the minor leagues. The Modesto Nuts (California League affiliate of the Mariners) has a couple of pitchers on the disabled list, now and at any given time. And Brian Bannister, who recently beat Madison Bumgarner and San Jose in a rehab start, had just come off the 60-day DL.

Pitchers are throwing harder than they used to. The average major league fastball is about 5 mph quicker than it was a couple of decades ago. The problem is that major league hitters are hitting average fastballs with more authority than they did a couple of decades ago.

While it is true that part of the reason there are more injuries today is that sports medicine is stricter about diagnosing injury, pitchers are having to work harder to get their outs. It wouldn't surprise me if it is shortening some careers.
I do remember pitchers from my youth that were flamethrowers but nothing of the magnitude today. Not only are they across the board throwing harder but my subjective flawed memory tells me pitchers are throwing more hard late breaking stuff that darts out of the zone. So many hitters hack at that slop, being faked out, furthering the already record high strikeout totals. This is taking a toll on pitchers, many of the younger ones already come into pro ball with way too high a pitch count from their youth days. You're absolutely right, the old Warren Spahn theory about disrupting a hitter's timing is so quaint and passe today. Hence the littered landscape of wounded pitching arms. Another reason to dislike Saber. That of course will win you no friends.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-12-2017, 02:43 PM
KyWhiSoxFan KyWhiSoxFan is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 2,128
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
I've wondered about that. With the emphasis moving away from getting hitters out by messing up their timing to striking hitters out and "fielder independent pitching," there seems to be more pitching injuries in the minor leagues. The Modesto Nuts (California League affiliate of the Mariners) has a couple of pitchers on the disabled list, now and at any given time. And Brian Bannister, who recently beat Madison Bumgarner and San Jose in a rehab start, had just come off the 60-day DL.

Pitchers are throwing harder than they used to. The average major league fastball is about 5 mph quicker than it was a couple of decades ago. The problem is that major league hitters are hitting average fastballs with more authority than they did a couple of decades ago.

While it is true that part of the reason there are more injuries today is that sports medicine is stricter about diagnosing injury, pitchers are having to work harder to get their outs. It wouldn't surprise me if it is shortening some careers.
Steve Carlton was in Lexington last weekend for an event where he signed stuff at a local store, and in the article that was written about him being in town, it included an interesting observation on pitchers today.

Carlton said he does not watch much baseball at all, but he noted that pitchers today are not pitching but throwing, not using their legs and a long stride. He said everyone he sees today has a short stride to the plate. I would think that type of action would lead to arm problems.

The image I have in my mind of Sandy Koufax was that long stride of his.

It would be interesting to see some metrics on the average strides today of pitchers based on height, etc., vs. 20, 30, and 40 years ago.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-12-2017, 03:05 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,812
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyWhiSoxFan View Post
Steve Carlton was in Lexington last weekend for an event where he signed stuff at a local store, and in the article that was written about him being in town, it included an interesting observation on pitchers today.

Carlton said he does not watch much baseball at all, but he noted that pitchers today are not pitching but throwing, not using their legs and a long stride. He said everyone he sees today has a short stride to the plate. I would think that type of action would lead to arm problems.

The image I have in my mind of Sandy Koufax was that long stride of his.

It would be interesting to see some metrics on the average strides today of pitchers based on height, etc., vs. 20, 30, and 40 years ago.

There are very few pitchers using the drop and drive technique of say a Tom Seaver. Big mistake in my opinion if you are going to be a power pitcher. There are also far more pitchers throwing hard breaking stuff and that just twists your elbow all to hell. Have you ever taken a look at pictures of a pitchers arm mid-throw? My arm doesn't bend that way naturally. No ones should.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-12-2017, 04:35 PM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 17,832
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I do remember pitchers from my youth that were flamethrowers but nothing of the magnitude today. Not only are they across the board throwing harder but my subjective flawed memory tells me pitchers are throwing more hard late breaking stuff that darts out of the zone. So many hitters hack at that slop, being faked out, furthering the already record high strikeout totals. This is taking a toll on pitchers, many of the younger ones already come into pro ball with way too high a pitch count from their youth days. You're absolutely right, the old Warren Spahn theory about disrupting a hitter's timing is so quaint and passe today. Hence the littered landscape of wounded pitching arms. Another reason to dislike Saber. That of course will win you no friends.
The scary thing is that many great pitching prospects won't survive development in the minors as quality pitchers.

The problem with pitching isn't isolated to pitching. Record strikeout totals aren't just about pitchers working harder to get hitters out. It's about hitters not caring that they are striking out, as if not striking out isn't part of successful hitting and willing to pass up hittable pitches to go deeper into counts.

The best hitter I wastched come up as an adult (from his spring training as a rookie) was Tony Gwynn, and the difference between his batting average and batting average of balls put into play was .003. That's over more than 2.400 games. The best White Sox hitter I've ever seen was Frank homas who had a .003 difference in batting average and batting average on balls put into play. Mike Trout, who many believe is the best hitter in baseball today, has a .052 difference between his batting average and batting average and batting average on balls put into play.

Hitters are taking more pitches and tying to work pitchers harder. It was not uncommon for Wilbur Wood in the 1970s to retire the side on three to five pitches, although there were other days when he couldn't find the strike zone with his knuckleball.

I think pitcher attrition is a huge problem in baseball, especially with 30 teams running out five-man starting rotations and seven our eight relivers (maybe a couple teams have six).

I think a bigger strike zone would change the dynamics of the game, making it easier to pitch and easing some of the injuries. I think it would be a better game to watch if hitters were forced to swing at more pitches, although the saber people might still not have a problem with hitters taking called third strikes because they were going to pop out or ground into a double play anyway.

That isn't going to happen, of course. In the meantime, I think the game needs more Mark Buehrles who don't have the incredible talent of Tom Seaver or Steve Carlton, but know how to pitch.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-12-2017, 05:27 PM
Chez's Avatar
Chez Chez is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Clarendon Hills
Posts: 6,186
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyWhiSoxFan View Post
Steve Carlton was in Lexington last weekend for an event where he signed stuff at a local store, and in the article that was written about him being in town, it included an interesting observation on pitchers today.

Carlton said he does not watch much baseball at all, but he noted that pitchers today are not pitching but throwing, not using their legs and a long stride. He said everyone he sees today has a short stride to the plate. I would think that type of action would lead to arm problems.

The image I have in my mind of Sandy Koufax was that long stride of his.

It would be interesting to see some metrics on the average strides today of pitchers based on height, etc., vs. 20, 30, and 40 years ago.

Probably not the best example to use since Koufax's career was, of course, cut short at age 30 by an arm injury!!
__________________
2017 Attendance Tracker: 7-7

All time Sox Attendance Tracker:
272-234.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-12-2017, 05:44 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 31,479
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Probably not the best example to use since Koufax's career was, of course, cut short at age 30 by an arm injury!!
I don't know if what he had should be exactly called an "arm injury". He had arthritis, the kind that gets progressively worse as you go. If I remember right it was something he was born with genetically... with a disposition to.

Pitching certainly didn't help the situation but he could have kept playing if he wanted to.

As he said at his retirement press conference he was tired of the shots and wanted to be able to have full use of his arm for the rest of his life.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-12-2017, 07:30 PM
KyWhiSoxFan KyWhiSoxFan is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 2,128
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Probably not the best example to use since Koufax's career was, of course, cut short at age 30 by an arm injury!!
The point is that he was great and his delivery helped make him great. I'll take five years of Koufax at his best every time. The Steve Carltons and Nolan Ryans, those with sustained success over many many years, are rare gems in the universe of pitchers.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-12-2017, 08:27 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is online now
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the heart of Dixie
Posts: 5,278
Default

Sandy Koufax. http://www.pophistorydig.com/topics/...fax-arthritis/
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-13-2017, 09:07 AM
Chez's Avatar
Chez Chez is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Clarendon Hills
Posts: 6,186
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
I don't know if what he had should be exactly called an "arm injury". He had arthritis, the kind that gets progressively worse as you go. If I remember right it was something he was born with genetically... with a disposition to.

Pitching certainly didn't help the situation but he could have kept playing if he wanted to.

As he said at his retirement press conference he was tired of the shots and wanted to be able to have full use of his arm for the rest of his life.

According to the article posted by SI1020, Koufax suffered from "Traumatic arthritis" -- which is not something you are born with or genetically predisposed to (like rheumatoid arthritis). As the name suggests, the condition is caused by trauma to a joint leading to the wearing down of cartilage in the joint. In Koufax's case, the trauma was likely caused by the stress placed on the joint from pitching.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-14-2017, 05:07 PM
hoosiersoxfan hoosiersoxfan is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,950
Default

Crap.

@JeffPassan "Sources: Hard-throwing White Sox RP Zack Burdi needs Tommy John surgery. Best-case scenario is back late 2018, but may not pitch until 2019."
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-14-2017, 05:12 PM
KRS1 KRS1 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 18,180
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosiersoxfan View Post
Crap.

@JeffPassan "Sources: Hard-throwing White Sox RP Zack Burdi needs Tommy John surgery. Best-case scenario is back late 2018, but may not pitch until 2019."
Just saw that. Ugh
__________________
People are bastard coated bastards with bastard filling
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:21 PM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.