Sox Philosophy Dilemma...

[dickallen15]

Originally Posted by Lip Man 1

Dick:

Regarding your comment about if the Sox made the playoffs two or three years in a row and didn't win anything fans would be upset.

Let's see them get to the playoffs two or three (or more?) years in a row and test that propostiion out first before saying what could or might take place.

Lip

I'm with you there, but remember when they did make the playoffs in 2008 after winning a title 3 years earlier, the jist was making the playoffs isn't good enough.

In fact, I remember reading comments on some White Sox message board, I can't remember which, and the conversation was about the Braves making it 15 years in a row. The majority of the posters said the Braves won only once, just making the playoffs gets old.

[Noneck]

Originally Posted by doublem23

I would say the current era of Tire Spinning began in 2007 and the Sox have been unable to successfully move on. I think that's a pretty clear point where the team could have used a drastic overhaul, but instead they have gone with a much slower and more painful rebuild.

2007 should have never occurred. After 2006 more resources should have been put into the club. That was their golden opportunity to keep the push on but they backed off.

[Lip Man 1]

One other point that adds some heft to Double's contention that since 2007 things have stagnated is this one:

From 2000 through 2006 the Sox never had a losing season. (Granted in four of those seven years the win totals were in the 80's)

From 2007 through 2012 the Sox haven't even been able to put back to back winning seasons together.

Lip

[The Immigrant]

Originally Posted by Hitmen77

I think you're absolutely right. The Sox have a sweetheart deal at the Cell. They've done a good job of avoiding the 90 loss range for most of Reinsdorf's tenure. I think they realize having that kind of team for any extended period would really hurt them financially. They're in a sweet spot (for them) where the team is just good enough to keep fans and the media mildly interested in them and keep the revenues coming in without having to really risk their profit margins by sinking too much into trying to build an elite team.

There are too many people in the ownership group for whom the Sox are a regular source of income rather than simply a long term investment. To them, it is all about short term revenues. I keep this in mind when I evaluate the approach the Sox have taken over the last few years and it all starts to make sense.

[RKMeibalane]

Originally Posted by dickallen15

I'm with you there, but remember when they did make the playoffs in 2008 after winning a title 3 years earlier, the jist was making the playoffs isn't good enough.

In fact, I remember reading comments on some White Sox message board, I can't remember which, and the conversation was about the Braves making it 15 years in a row. The majority of the posters said the Braves won only once, just making the playoffs gets old.

This is true if a team is fortunate enough to have a run like this. The Yankees experienced a similar situation. The Sox have never had a run of success that even approaches what the Braves accomplished. People would likely tire of just reaching the playoffs if the Sox couldn't close the deal, but as they've never reached that point to begin with (making the playoffs in consecutive seasons), just about anything would be a significant improvement over winning once every five years.

[Lip Man 1]

Immigrant:

I sort of understand what you are saying but it's also a fact that some of the individuals (I'd say most) on the Sox Board of Directors / Owners are among the wealthiest people around. Regular working stiffs don't own part of a pro sports franchise

Seriously I don't think they are going to go hungry if the Sox don't make say 20 million if profit and only make 18 million.

Lip

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by dickallen15

I'm with you there, but remember when they did make the playoffs in 2008 after winning a title 3 years earlier, the jist was making the playoffs isn't good enough.

There's a difference between making the playoffs and "making" the playoffs. The 2008 Sox won the Central because they were the least mediocre team in a woefully awful division that year. Everybody was aware of this and they were promptly bounced by a much better Tampa Bay team. I think people can forgive early playoff exits when you're the better team that just loses in a heart-wrenching way. Nobody considers the Nats' 98-win season last year a "fluke," even if they couldn't get out of the NLDS, but that's just because they got ****ed by the stupid 5-game series setup. But when you need an extra game just to get to 89 wins, that's not the sign of a great team, just the luckiest of the bunch.

[My_Sox_Summer]

Originally Posted by Hitmen77

Finally, the other line of thinking about the Sox that I think is completely wrong and total bull**** is this notion that "well, the Sox were winning last year and the fans still didn't show up. It's not the ownership's fault that fans won't even support a winner." When I hear people say that, it just makes me want to scream in frustration. Do people really think that the Sox being good for 3 months only to fall short every year is good enough to lay this on fan support? I don't know if Sox management feels this way, but this is certainly a common thinking about this team even from it's own fans. So, I'd say this is a lousy philosophical way to look at the Sox even if it's not necessarily coming from team management.

Good topic, good post Hitmen.

I take issue with this as I was one of those fans saying that. I guess it depends on what you call our fan base. I was angered at the end of the season when I am sitting watching a 1st place team, with their ace on the mound, in Sept. and there are only 10k people there on half price night. To compound matters, playoff tickets were sold out.

So are we a fan base that refuses to the do the heavy lifting? Are we bandwagon fans? Are we die hards?

I think the die hards were there that night and will show up regardless what the circumstances are. You would think bandwagon fans would be there as it doesn't matter to those fans what happened before or what will happen later, the now is the only thing that matters. But they weren't there. I think management wondered this too, which is why they did that huge survey and made price changes accordingly. This is not a unique situation, Tampa Bay, Baltimore are both in the same boat. But I know Baltimore struggled to sell playoff tickets, we did not.

We'll see how this year goes, but if there are lackluster numbers even with the lowered parking and ticket prices, I don't expect them to last. We need to attract that casual fan. As a fan, I think there are a lot of excuses made on both sides. But when the Sox offer a Sunday game that a family for four can go to for $30 ( $5 tickets and $10 parking) kinda hard to blame the organization, in my view.

[kittle42]

Originally Posted by sox1970

I'd say living off the success of 2005 is part of the problem now.

Love that it happened, but it's sickening how many people with the Sox still talk about it as if it just happened, or it's relevant anymore.

In a city that worships a team that won the Super Bowl almost 30 years ago, it is no surprise to me.

We're a pretty pathetic sports town as far as accepting losing.

[Dan H]

Originally Posted by dickallen15

I don't know how anyone could understand the fans. You want green seats, bingo, green seats. You want a contender, bingo, won a WS, last year they were in first place, no one came. You want cheaper tickets and parking, bingo, cheaper tickets and parking, yet Sox fans will always move the goalposts. How often are teams expected to win the WS? If they win one once every 10 years, they would be one of the more awesome franchises in the league. To think they don't care to understand the fans is not paying any attention to what they have done the past 10 years or so. It's just an impossible task.

I don't think I ever wanted bingo. The Sox don't win a World Series every 10 years. The team has won only one since 1917. And 10 years turns into 20 real fast especially in Chicago baseball terms.

What have they done since the WS? By Chicago baseball standards, they've been all right except that they have only won one post season game since 2005. The last year Ozzie was here was a joke. Just two years after the Series when they were still drawing, they lost 90 games.

I, for one fan, have moved the goal posts. I have been going to Sox games for over 50 years and am not in the mood to settle for occasional success. I have already watched enough so-so and bad teams. It is time for this team to have some sustained success. That is not too mouch to ask and if ownership doesn't graps that, it doesn't understand their fans.

[Hitmen77]

Originally Posted by doublem23

I got that but I think it's disingenious to claim that the Sox have been in some kind of Gray Zone that covers the franchise's one and only World Series title in the last average human lifetime. For the three seasons from 2004-2006, the Sox were probably one of the best teams in the league.

I would say the current era of Tire Spinning began in 2007 and the Sox have been unable to successfully move on. I think that's a pretty clear point where the team could have used a drastic overhaul, but instead they have gone with a much slower and more painful rebuild.

Originally Posted by doublem23

I would just say, from my own humble vantage point, the Sox "periods" of my lifetime are as follows:

1990-1994 - Torborg/Lamont/Big Hurt/Good Guys Wear Black Boom Years
1995-1997 - Terry Bevington Clown Years/Dismantling of the Dynasty that Never Was
1998-2003 - Jerry Manuel Kids Can Play Years
2004-2006 - Ozzieball Glory Years
2007-2013 - Whatever the **** This Is

Good point. You're right about the 2004-2006 time frame being an era of legitimate playoff contenders and how they've settled into more of a "playoff pretenders" rut since then (with, of course the one division title in '08 during this time).

I think one of the things that happened after 2006 is that the well started running dry of homegrown talent that could either become a big contributor to the Sox major league lineup or be used to acquire some decent talent via trade.

Remember, during this time Sox lineups featured farm system products like Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Crede, Rowand, Buehrle, Garland (acquired in 1998 as a minor leaguer from the Cubs), etc. The Sox also were able parlay some of their prospects for players like Garcia (for Olivo and Michael Morse), Vazquez (Chris Young), and Thome (Gio Gonzalez).

There was that sweet spot there where KW was a master at shuffling talent for pieces they needed on the major league roster. IMO, once the talent pool in our farm system ran dry and the next round of Sox prospects turned out to be duds like Anderson and Fields, Kenny's "smoke and mirrors" efforts to keep the Sox in that top tier of AL teams started to crumble.

He had a great run there in 2007-08 where he made a series of great trades (Fingernails on a blackboard () for Danks, Garcia for Floyd AND Gio, the Quentin trade. But those were all more than 5 years ago now. We haven't seen anything close to that since then and, to be honest, the Sox haven't had many pieces to trade in that time.

Originally Posted by My_Sox_Summer

Good topic, good post Hitmen.

I take issue with this as I was one of those fans saying that. I guess it depends on what you call our fan base. I was angered at the end of the season when I am sitting watching a 1st place team, with their ace on the mound, in Sept. and there are only 10k people there on half price night. To compound matters, playoff tickets were sold out.

So are we a fan base that refuses to the do the heavy lifting? Are we bandwagon fans? Are we die hards?

I think the die hards were there that night and will show up regardless what the circumstances are. You would think bandwagon fans would be there as it doesn't matter to those fans what happened before or what will happen later, the now is the only thing that matters. But they weren't there. I think management wondered this too, which is why they did that huge survey and made price changes accordingly. This is not a unique situation, Tampa Bay, Baltimore are both in the same boat. But I know Baltimore struggled to sell playoff tickets, we did not.

We'll see how this year goes, but if there are lackluster numbers even with the lowered parking and ticket prices, I don't expect them to last. We need to attract that casual fan. As a fan, I think there are a lot of excuses made on both sides. But when the Sox offer a Sunday game that a family for four can go to for $30 ( $5 tickets and $10 parking) kinda hard to blame the organization, in my view.

I see your point. I share in the frustration in seeing small crowds last year when the Sox were still in first. But, I think, as frustrating as it is to us die-hard fans, it's just tough for most teams to do a full reversal and see 35k a night in September that quickly. Remember, at the start of the 2012 season the Sox had given the fans very low expectation of being a playoff contender. They even hired a manager for on-the-job training. I like Ventura, but this was a big signal to the fans that the Sox were not planning to compete in 2012. After 3 years in a row of bitter disappointments capped off by the "we're total quitters" team of 2011, the Sox were going into 2012 with low season ticket sales and low advanced sales. Those school year games are just brutal attendance wise if you don't have good advanced sales to start with and big crowds for those games were just not going to happen.

You're right that dynamic pricing and parking costs were also a factor. We'll never know what attendance would have been like last year if they had the $10 parking and $5 tickets on Sundays, etc. that they're offering this year.

I just reject the notion that this is "on the fans". It's up to the Sox organization to build up the market for their team and it has nothing to do with Sox fans being lousy fans and that the Sox product on the field over the last 5 years proves that the fans just suck.

[dickallen15]

Originally Posted by Dan H

I don't think I ever wanted bingo. The Sox don't win a World Series every 10 years. The team has won only one since 1917. And 10 years turns into 20 real fast especially in Chicago baseball terms.

What have they done since the WS? By Chicago baseball standards, they've been all right except that they have only won one post season game since 2005. The last year Ozzie was here was a joke. Just two years after the Series when they were still drawing, they lost 90 games.

I, for one fan, have moved the goal posts. I have been going to Sox games for over 50 years and am not in the mood to settle for occasional success. I have already watched enough so-so and bad teams. It is time for this team to have some sustained success. That is not too mouch to ask and if ownership doesn't graps that, it doesn't understand their fans.

So based on results, you have a problem with every ownership the White Sox ever had. You probably also would have issues with just about every ownership group except for 2 or 3 in the league as not understanding the fans.

[mahagga73]

Originally Posted by doublem23

There's a difference between making the playoffs and "making" the playoffs. The 2008 Sox won the Central because they were the least mediocre team in a woefully awful division that year. Everybody was aware of this and they were promptly bounced by a much better Tampa Bay team. I think people can forgive early playoff exits when you're the better team that just loses in a heart-wrenching way. Nobody considers the Nats' 98-win season last year a "fluke," even if they couldn't get out of the NLDS, but that's just because they got ****ed by the stupid 5-game series setup. But when you need an extra game just to get to 89 wins, that's not the sign of a great team, just the luckiest of the bunch.

Great post . I hate the idea of a 5 game series too, increases the chances of a fluke series win immensely. Seven games pretty much leaves little doubt because either the first or second best pitcher on a team is going to get a third shot in a game seven. A vastly inferior team with one real good pitcher and a couple breaks can easily get lucky and win a 5 game set. It seems to me to be cheating a better team to allow that after a 162 game marathon season.

[mahagga73]

Originally Posted by kittle42

In a city that worships a team that won the Super Bowl almost 30 years ago, it is no surprise to me.

We're a pretty pathetic sports town as far as accepting losing.

I am a Sox fan but a fan of another football team besides the Bears that has won it much more recently and that does strike me as a little sad that the 85 team is still worshipped like they won yesterday, but that was a one heck of a team, so I don't think it's all that pathetic really. They were one of the better teams ever for that one season. At least Chicago fans can remember when the Hawks, Bears, Bulls, and Sox won. Philly has that one Phillie's title to brag about after all these years, and nothing since 1960 besides that.

[shingo10]

In regards to making the playoffs in 2008, things would have and should have looked much differently if TCQ didn't punch his bat and if Crede would have stayed healthy. Then we would have been a legitimate contender. Unfortunately those injuries did occur and we were doomed.

When facing any difficult problem sometimes you need to attack it from a different perspective. And this is what the organization has failed to do in my opinion. Nothing can change if no action is ever taken. So something has to give. Whatever the "philosophy" is they need to commit to something. You can always adjust one way or another but you have to at least start. So I hope the Sox don't continue to spin their wheels but instead take some meaningful action.