White Sox Interactive Forums
Talking Baseball

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Talking Baseball
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 06-19-2017, 06:29 PM
cards press box cards press box is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,673
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
His managerial prowess is highly overrated. Yes, he had a charmed postseason in 2005. And he was responsible for the collapse in 2006 and the team's rapid descent into irrelevancy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Ozzie Guillen really wasn't a good manager.

It was easy in 2005 when every member of the bullpen had a career year.

In 2006, Ozzie squarely cost us a return to the playoffs. His dumbass decision to push his starters hard in the first half, and take them to the ASG and not rest them after huge workloads in 2005 is why they burned out in the 2nd half.

Even with his title, Ozzie Guillen's career winning percentage is that of a manager who wins about 82-84 games a year. Not really impressive.

Further, no one wants a manager who thinks the name on the back of the jersey means more than the one on the front. Ozzie will always be Ozzie, and that is why no one will even give him an interview. He simply isn't worth the headache.
Let's not forget Ozzie's blunder in 2008: he could have started then rookie Clayton Richard in Game 1 of the ALDS against Tampa Bay. It would have been a gutsy move, sure, but actually a pretty obvious one.

Tampa struggled mightily against lefties that year. They hit righties much better. The Sox certainly should have started Richard, John Danks and Mark Buerhle in that series. For me, the fourth starter would have been Gavin Floyd but if he wanted to use Javier Vazquez, then fine.

I appreciate Ozzie's efforts to win the World Series in 2005 but not starting Richard against the Rays in the playoffs -- and in favor of the struggling Vazquez, no less --was a lulu of a bad decision.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-19-2017, 07:06 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 31,234
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cards press box View Post
Let's not forget Ozzie's blunder in 2008: he could have started then rookie Clayton Richard in Game 1 of the ALDS against Tampa Bay. It would have been a gutsy move, sure, but actually a pretty obvious one.

Tampa struggled mightily against lefties that year. They hit righties much better. The Sox certainly should have started Richard, John Danks and Mark Buerhle in that series. For me, the fourth starter would have been Gavin Floyd but if he wanted to use Javier Vazquez, then fine.

I appreciate Ozzie's efforts to win the World Series in 2005 but not starting Richard against the Rays in the playoffs -- and in favor of the struggling Vazquez, no less --was a lulu of a bad decision.
Is this the same Clayton Richard with an ERA of over five who usually couldn't make it out of the fifth inning?

With respect there's no way in hell, that stiff should have started game #1 of a playoff series.

Just my opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-19-2017, 07:14 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 18,978
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Is this the same Clayton Richard with an ERA of over five who usually couldn't make it out of the fifth inning?

With respect there's no way in hell, that stiff should have started game #1 of a playoff series.

Just my opinion.
It either would have worked brilliantly, or failed spectacularly. As it was, Vazquez got torched anyway and the Sox were in a hole with Danks unavailable until game 3 and Buehrle only available for games 2 and 5.
__________________
The universe is the practical joke of the General at the expense of the Particular, quoth Frater Perdurabo, and laughed. The disciples nearest him wept, seeing the Universal Sorrow. Others laughed, seeing the Universal Joke. Others wept. Others laughed. Others wept because they couldn't see the Joke, and others laughed lest they should be thought not to see the Joke. But though FRATER laughed openly, he wept secretly; and really he neither laughed nor wept. Nor did he mean what he said.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06-20-2017, 04:02 PM
Irishsox1 Irishsox1 is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,462
Default

This stuff about Ozzie being a bad manager is garbage. Ozzie was an excellent manager that turned around a talented but under performing team and won a World Series. (I can remember thinking Konerko was done for after his disastrous 2003 season.)

But, Ozzie burns hot and he ticked off Kenny and Kenny won the battle. Still don't know why Kenny is running the White Sox with his puppet GM Hahn, but Kenny is still there. As for Miami, that year was all Jeffrey Loria, just ask Mark Buehrle who was hood winked into signing with Miami only to get traded the next year to Toronto a team he would have never signed with as a free agent.

I would hire Ozzie if my team wasn't entering a 10th year in a row of "rebuilding". Look at Dusty Baker and Buck Shoewalter, excellent managers that somehow burnout in the playoffs every year.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-20-2017, 11:04 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 31,234
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishsox1 View Post
This stuff about Ozzie being a bad manager is garbage. Ozzie was an excellent manager that turned around a talented but under performing team and won a World Series. (I can remember thinking Konerko was done for after his disastrous 2003 season.)
He certainly was an excellent manger...was being the operative word. Then he started to believe his press clippings, started crying about what he was getting paid and the length of his contract and then quit on the team.

Those are facts that can't be disputed.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-22-2017, 07:54 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
Chief Skeptic and 2015 Preseason Predictions Contest Winner
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
He certainly was an excellent manger...was being the operative word. Then he started to believe his press clippings, started crying about what he was getting paid and the length of his contract and then quit on the team.

Those are facts that can't be disputed.
Ozzie woke this team up after the Jerry Manuel "corpseball" years, and deserves credit for 2005. Then success went to his head, he managed the team out of playoff contention in 2006, blamed everyone else for it, and was never a good manager again.

His personal style and career trajectory continues to remind me of Billy Martin.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-23-2017, 01:28 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the heart of Dixie
Posts: 5,249
Default

Maybe nobody sees it this way but me in that I think he was never quite the same after the dust-up with Mariotti. I think it deeply wounded his psyche and if you disagree with me I won't argue. Now that being said, this incident occurred in June of 06 and I don't blame him for the second half collapse of the starting rotation. What do you do when your starters are getting shelled on a regular basis? The agonizingly long playoff schedule has wreaked havoc on more than one WS champ, making it so difficult to repeat in 21st Century baseball. I also can't see the argument that not using Clayton Richard, that Clayton Richard prevented the Sox from going deeper into the 08 playoffs. Anyway, I think Ozzie began to unravel in 06 but was still a decent manager for several seasons afterward. By 2011 the situation, which was now multi-faceted had deteriorated beyond fixing.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 06-23-2017, 01:37 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Antioch, IL
Posts: 6,387
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cards press box View Post
Let's not forget Ozzie's blunder in 2008: he could have started then rookie Clayton Richard in Game 1 of the ALDS against Tampa Bay. It would have been a gutsy move, sure, but actually a pretty obvious one.

Tampa struggled mightily against lefties that year. They hit righties much better. The Sox certainly should have started Richard, John Danks and Mark Buerhle in that series. For me, the fourth starter would have been Gavin Floyd but if he wanted to use Javier Vazquez, then fine.

I appreciate Ozzie's efforts to win the World Series in 2005 but not starting Richard against the Rays in the playoffs -- and in favor of the struggling Vazquez, no less --was a lulu of a bad decision.
The biggest incident that impacted 2008 was Carlos Quentin's self inflicted injury- if he's healthy, they don't go to game 163 to clinch, and their rotation is more "set" going into the ALDS, and not starters going on short rest.

Plus Quentin is in the line up instead of Swisher/Wise (he had a decent series actually hitting .286)

Clayton Richard had a 6.04 ERA (6.34 in 3 September starts)- not sure if he was really the answer.
__________________
TomBradley72
http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/334c0314
2017 Record: 2-2
2005-2016 Record: 56-44
MLB Parks Visited: 25, MiLB Parks Visited: 18
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 06-23-2017, 01:39 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Antioch, IL
Posts: 6,387
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Ozzie woke this team up after the Jerry Manuel "corpseball" years, and deserves credit for 2005. Then success went to his head, he managed the team out of playoff contention in 2006, blamed everyone else for it, and was never a good manager again.

His personal style and career trajectory continues to remind me of Billy Martin.
Nailed it.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 06-23-2017, 03:39 PM
Vernam Vernam is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,569
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
Maybe nobody sees it this way but me in that I think he was never quite the same after the dust-up with Mariotti.
Only vaguely remembering the Mariotti incident, I defer to you, SI. But if we're blaming volatile hacks at the Sun-Times, my choice is that weasel who now covers the Bulls. He successfully "flipped" Ozzie by convincing him and his sons they were above the team, the GM, and eventually even the owner. The combination of anonymous and on-record quotes from Ozzie and his surrogates was his downfall, and far more than the Castro incident in Miami, his shameful behavior here is why he's so far unemployable.

Note that this same weasel made the same play to get Derrick Rose to turn publicly against Bulls management and ownership. However much they might deserve disloyalty, it's just a dumb move for any player, no matter how exalted. And then Jimmy Butler rose to that bait, leading to his reunion with Thibs.

Basically, any agent who lets their client talk to that guy ought to get fired for malpractice. That's not to say it wasn't Ozzie's own fault, but that bonfire started with a single spark. For me, the point of no return was his inexcusable conduct on August 31, 2011.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 06-23-2017, 06:05 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the heart of Dixie
Posts: 5,249
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vernam View Post
Only vaguely remembering the Mariotti incident, I defer to you, SI. But if we're blaming volatile hacks at the Sun-Times, my choice is that weasel who now covers the Bulls. He successfully "flipped" Ozzie by convincing him and his sons they were above the team, the GM, and eventually even the owner. The combination of anonymous and on-record quotes from Ozzie and his surrogates was his downfall, and far more than the Castro incident in Miami, his shameful behavior here is why he's so far unemployable.

Note that this same weasel made the same play to get Derrick Rose to turn publicly against Bulls management and ownership. However much they might deserve disloyalty, it's just a dumb move for any player, no matter how exalted. And then Jimmy Butler rose to that bait, leading to his reunion with Thibs.

Basically, any agent who lets their client talk to that guy ought to get fired for malpractice. That's not to say it wasn't Ozzie's own fault, but that bonfire started with a single spark. For me, the point of no return was his inexcusable conduct on August 31, 2011.
I had one encounter with the writer you mentioned and it did not go well. Anyway, very good post. I don't know who cultivated who in that relationship or if they were just co dependents. Whatever, it was a mess.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 06-23-2017, 09:49 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 31,234
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vernam View Post
Only vaguely remembering the Mariotti incident, I defer to you, SI. But if we're blaming volatile hacks at the Sun-Times, my choice is that weasel who now covers the Bulls.
I can only speak for myself but I found Joe most professional and cordial not only when I interviewed him for WSI but when I met him in the dugout before a Sox game.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 06-26-2017, 08:05 PM
Vernam Vernam is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,569
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
I can only speak for myself but I found Joe most professional and cordial not only when I interviewed him for WSI but when I met him in the dugout before a Sox game.
Conversely, here was my encounter with Tailgunner Joe. YMMV, of course, Lip, but I know a raging ******* when I hear one.

Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 06-26-2017, 08:42 PM
TommyJohn TommyJohn is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,660
Blog Entries: 245
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vernam View Post
Conversely, here was my encounter with Tailgunner Joe. YMMV, of course, Lip, but I know a raging ******* when I hear one.

JC actually posted here three times some years ago. You want to see a raging ******* in action? Read his posts.
__________________
I am Dabuiek
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:16 PM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.