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  #151  
Old 06-11-2018, 05:20 PM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
See, that's not what was said when we got this kid. I hate it when we re-do expectations just to meet a narrative. The expectation was an MVP potential prospect and reason why this Sale trade was a no-brainer. 90+% of the the fanbase was on board with this trade based on that premise. Whatever Kopech and Basabe brought on top of this was just gravy.

Moncada needs to be great, no other way to see this.
This thread is...well, it's something. Not to pile on but I can't think of a single professional scout that predicted stardom right out of the gate. No doubt, much was made of his ceiling but his floor was probably what we're seeing at the moment.

You have no idea how the Sox weighed the talent. Could be that Kopech was more than just "gravy." In any case, it doesn't matter. Moncada is not an outlier among top prospects. More often than not, they struggle in their first year or two in the league.

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I don't think Moncada has to be great in order for the Sox to compete. Sure, it'd be nice, but they have enough other highly-regarded prospects that I don't think their future rests in the glove or bat of their 2nd baseman. I'm not suggesting he can be a bust either, but the bar doesn't need to be set to 'Cooperstown or Bust.'

Just take a breath and see how it plays out.
  #152  
Old 06-11-2018, 06:41 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by slavko
All very true and provable. What's left out is when an ordinary runner is on first and Trayce is at the plate with no outs. It might not be a sucker bet then. And that would depend on Trayce's skill in laying one down.
I wouldn’t mind as much if Thompson and Engel were the ones doing the bunting instead of being on deck when the bunting takes place. Renteria is not only giving away outs, he is doing it to set up the hitters who have the worst possible chance of making the trade pay dividends.

I also don’t really want people like Moncada or Sanchez bunting in front of Abreu and setting up a no-brainer IBB for the opposing manager. This has happened at least twice that I can recall, and that is just off the top of my head.
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  #153  
Old 06-11-2018, 06:56 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Who said Moncada was going to be Trout good right out of the gate?
I never said I was looking for an MVP out of the gate nor that any scout/expert said this.

My response was to those who are now diminishing the expectations on the kid for when he becomes a finished product.

Can we at least all agree here that if Moncada does not develop into a 6-7 WAR All Star player come 2020 it will be a huge disappointment?
  #154  
Old 06-11-2018, 07:07 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit
I never said I was looking for an MVP out of the gate nor that any scout/expert said this.

My response was to those who are now diminishing the expectations on the kid for when he becomes a finished product.

Can we at least all agree here that if Moncada does not develop into a 6-7 WAR All Star player come 2020 it will be a huge disappointment?
Not if his RH swing is the only thing diminishing his WAR. If he’s good defensively and hitting the ball extremely hard LH, then it may be a sign to abandon switch-hitting. I don’t know how feasible that would be, though.

If his defense doesn’t come around, then that would be worrisome.
  #155  
Old 06-11-2018, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
I never said I was looking for an MVP out of the gate nor that any scout/expert said this.

My response was to those who are now diminishing the expectations on the kid for when he becomes a finished product.

Can we at least all agree here that if Moncada does not develop into a 6-7 WAR All Star player come 2020 it will be a huge disappointment?
I honestly don't know. If he turns into a consistent 5+ WAR player I'll be pretty happy, especially if any of the other parts can pan out and we're about to start seeing what Kopech can do soon...

I mean if Moncada turns into a consisten 6-7 WAR player he's a lock for the HOF if he stays healthy. That would be saying that anything less than a HOF player is a "huge disappointment" would be hard for me to sign on to. Not every top rated prospect is a HOF player. Doesn't mean they don't normally turn into excellent AS caliber players.
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  #156  
Old 06-11-2018, 07:32 PM
wxkid23 wxkid23 is offline
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Moncada turns into anything but an AS, this part of trade was fail.
  #157  
Old 06-11-2018, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mzh View Post
2009 Gordon Beckham, age 22:
439 PA, 14 HR, 7 SB, .270/.350/.460, 2.3 WAR

Good thing ceilings and careers are decided by the first season's worth of PAs, right?
Exactly. Thanks for adding.
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  #158  
Old 06-11-2018, 09:10 PM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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Maybe he needs a day off? Pretty sure he is pressing at the moment.
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  #159  
Old 06-11-2018, 10:24 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Sigh.

2005 Cano, age 22:
551 PA, 14 HR, 1 SB, .297/.320/.458, 0.2 WAR

2018 Moncada, age 23:
497 PA, 16 HR, 10 SB, .233/.321/.409, 2.3 WAR

So, actually, at the circa-500 PA point in their respective careers, Moncada looks not too much different from Robinson Cano.

All I meant is that I care about Moncada performing better more consistently so he doesn't end up going the way of Beckham for his career. I want him to go the way of Cano for his career. Right now he reminds me of Beckham circa 2010-2013 (and with worse defense). I hope I'm wrong and will gladly suffer through ridicule for years to come if it means he ends up a perennial all-star.
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  #160  
Old 06-11-2018, 11:55 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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All I meant is that I care about Moncada performing better more consistently so he doesn't end up going the way of Beckham for his career. I want him to go the way of Cano for his career. Right now he reminds me of Beckham circa 2010-2013 (and with worse defense). I hope I'm wrong and will gladly suffer through ridicule for years to come if it means he ends up a perennial all-star.
But at this point in his career, he's shown what a lot of future all-stars have shown. It takes time.
  #161  
Old 06-12-2018, 05:00 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
Maybe he needs a day off? Pretty sure he is pressing at the moment.
He is the everyday 2B for the White Sox. Other than injury, insubordination or the rare break b/c of an endless string of games he gets no day off.

Not only does the organization have to believe that Moncada is the answer at second base Moncada himself has to believe that.
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  #162  
Old 06-12-2018, 10:06 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
He is the everyday 2B for the White Sox. Other than injury, insubordination or the rare break b/c of an endless string of games he gets no day off.

Not only does the organization have to believe that Moncada is the answer at second base Moncada himself has to believe that.
You really think a day off once every few weeks is going to shatter his confidence? There's nothing wrong with giving a rookie a day off every once in awhile.
  #163  
Old 06-12-2018, 10:20 AM
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You really think a day off once every few weeks is going to shatter his confidence? There's nothing wrong with giving a rookie a day off every once in awhile.
No obviously everyone needs a day off every now and then as part of a regular rest routine, but that's different than what many seem to be suggesting in this thread.
  #164  
Old 06-12-2018, 07:12 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
You really think a day off once every few weeks is going to shatter his confidence? There's nothing wrong with giving a rookie a day off every once in awhile.

He does...


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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
No obviously everyone needs a day off every now and then as part of a regular rest routine, but that's different than what many seem to be suggesting in this thread.

Thank you...


Moncada is your regular second baseman. He is in the lineup card as a regular.
  #165  
Old 06-12-2018, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post

Can we at least all agree here that if Moncada does not develop into a 6-7 WAR All Star player come 2020 it will be a huge disappointment?

Certainly not. No prospect is ever projected to be a 6-7 WAR player because it's such a rare occurrence. It's more likely that a super talented generational player completely busts than gives you 6-7 WAR annually.

If those are your expectations, prepare to be disappointed. I mean, Bryce Harper is essentially a 4-5 WAR player and any team would be thrilled to have him (and someone will break the bank to get him). The guy we traded for Moncada only hit 6 WAR once while wearing a Sox uni.

Moncada doesn't need to be an MVP caliber player for the trade to be a win. If he and Kopech are merely contributors to a successful rebuild it's a win.
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