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  #61  
Old 08-07-2017, 07:44 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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But it should have been. The Royals and Cubs didn't trade an Ace, a near-ace and a 5 WAR outfielder.
Yes it should have been... and it was. Success!

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There are some concerns; back ends of most of the trades were spotty.
Back ends of trades are always spotty. I would have liked to see a better third prospect in the Cubs and Yankees trades but am outstandingly happy with the primary pieces.

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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Very little up the middle talent acquired;
They did pick up a well regarded second baseman as I recall. And they already had a guy they signed to a long term contract to be their SS. I agree middle infield is the weakness of the minor league system now but it wasn't the place of greatest need. Still isn't a place of great need. But it wouldn't surprise me if they draft this guy Turang at SS next year.

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very little attention paid toward defense
Not sure where that is coming from. Moncada has already flashed some serious leather for us. Jiminez has a strong arm and is supposed to be major league average in fielding. Luis Robert is graded as plus speed, above average arm, and above average fielding. Rutherford is supposed to be major league average at run, field, and arm. Burger is supposed to be major league average at running and fielding with an above average arm. Sheets again, above average arm and average field. Basabe plus speed, plus arm, above average field. Cordell plus speed, above average arm, above average speed. And then there is Gillaspie who sounds like he fields very well for a DH. Plus they traded for a ton of pitching which is the first line of defense.

Bottom line is that this team is far ahead of where either the Cubs or Royals were at any time during their rebuilds.

The future is bright.
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  #62  
Old 08-07-2017, 09:15 PM
Bucky F. Dent Bucky F. Dent is offline
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Preach, Brother White! Preach!
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  #63  
Old 08-07-2017, 11:12 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Andrew C White View Post

Bottom line is that this team is far ahead of where either the Cubs or Royals were at any time during their rebuilds.

The future is bright.
And it should be, so it, in itself, isn't anything special.
Just reading what you wrote, there is a lot of "average" (except for Robert). Average doesn't cut it. It really reads like a bunch of Avis out there (good arm).
Up the middle includes CF and C. Not much. I would also throw pitching out there; do we have 10 starting prospects? 10-12 for the pen? That's what will be needed. Some can be acquired by trade - will have to be unless we want to wait a decade - but that throws another variable and more dependency on the skill of this FO.
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  #64  
Old 08-07-2017, 11:59 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Luis Robert is a CF. Zack Collins, Seby Zavala, and Evan Skoug are more catching prospect depth than we've had in a long time (there are some young latin american prospect catchers at the rookie and dsl level too - we'll see if any of them turn into anything).

And no, not everyone is going to be rated above major league average. Very few are. This is a fantastic collection of them. More than any other team in the game right now.

I would not rate Avi's defense as being anything close to major league average. His bat and speed, yes but his defense is distinctly below average. Leury Garcia is closer to average.

And I think Lopez, Giolito, Fulmer, Kopech, Adams, Stephens, Guerrero, Hansen, Dunning, Clarkin, Puckett, and Cease add up to 12 major league prospect starters. Not all of them will make it as starters so that makes a good start on the bullpen too. Throw in Rodon, Burdi, Bummer, and a few others and the fact is that the pitching depth is there.

Regardless, you are asking for more than any team has probably had at any time in the history of the game. The point is that what this team has accumulated in the last year is an amazing amount of young talent that will probably set the Sox on a winning path for many years.
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  #65  
Old 08-08-2017, 04:01 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by Andrew C White View Post
Bottom line is that this team is far ahead of where either the Cubs or Royals were at any time during their rebuilds.

The future is bright.
I am not sure on the metric you use when you say the White sox are far ahead of other clubs regarding the rebuild process.

Potential is one thing, a good thing, to keep fans interested.

It's not the means to an end that matters; it's the end in itself.

If this core group of players in the White Sox system do not win a WS championship then they've failed to achieve what those two other teams you mentioned have achieved.
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  #66  
Old 08-08-2017, 07:55 AM
CHISOXFAN13 CHISOXFAN13 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
And it should be, so it, in itself, isn't anything special.
Just reading what you wrote, there is a lot of "average" (except for Robert). Average doesn't cut it. It really reads like a bunch of Avis out there (good arm).
Up the middle includes CF and C. Not much. I would also throw pitching out there; do we have 10 starting prospects? 10-12 for the pen? That's what will be needed. Some can be acquired by trade - will have to be unless we want to wait a decade - but that throws another variable and more dependency on the skill of this FO.
Lopez. Kopech, Hansen, Giolito, Dunning, Adams, Cease, Guerrero, Clarkin, Stephens and Puckett. There's 11. I didn't mention Fulmer or Burdi. So, yeah, there's a **** ton of elite starting pitching prospects and others who will end up in the pen. Oh and the best thing? There will be more after next year's draft.

Collins, Zevala and Skoug? That's weak at catcher. YAWN.

It's OK to dislike the plan. It's not OK to just dismiss the fact there is massive talent in the system because you don't like it.
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  #67  
Old 08-08-2017, 08:33 AM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
And it should be, so it, in itself, isn't anything special.
Just reading what you wrote, there is a lot of "average" (except for Robert). Average doesn't cut it. It really reads like a bunch of Avis out there (good arm).
Up the middle includes CF and C. Not much. I would also throw pitching out there; do we have 10 starting prospects? 10-12 for the pen? That's what will be needed. Some can be acquired by trade - will have to be unless we want to wait a decade - but that throws another variable and more dependency on the skill of this FO.
This rebuild process started with last year's draft. I don't understand how you can reasonably expect the organization to have stockpiled as much talent as you say they need in just 1.5 seasons. They have done an incredible job so far acquiring talent, which has a lot to do with the assets they traded away. But the process isn't over. This is ongoing, and when the roster starts to take shape in a couple years they don't have to necessarily keep making trades, they can make FA signings. Nitpicking about the lack of depth at certain positions at this stage of the rebuild shows a lack of patience.
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  #68  
Old 08-08-2017, 08:36 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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No, not all prospects become major league contributors.

But the Sox have many pitching prospects whose floor is that of a high-leverage reliever. So some of them will become starters. Some will become relievers. Some will never pitch again due to combinations of injury and ineffectivess. But the sheer quantity of high quality makes it likely that the Sox will be able to put together a rotation from among 3-4 #2-quality starters, 2-3 #3/4-quality starters, and a stacked bullpen. I don't think they will have to go out and buy a free agent starting pitcher, or even trade for one.
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  #69  
Old 08-08-2017, 09:50 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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I've been calling for a complete redo of the on-field staff for some time.

I still believe the Renteria hire was spurred on by the desire of Sox brass to keep Cooper, who seems to be a usual "Sox-lifer".

Other managers would want to choose their own staff, and while I accept Cooper has done a good job for us over the years, it's time for fresh blood with the aim of maximizing our prospect base.
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  #70  
Old 08-09-2017, 04:45 PM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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One of the things I have loved about this board was back in 2001 I could get away from "tigersrulewhitesoxdrool" and be near sox fans. I truly love readin what many have to say and respect 99% of everyone here. I just don't ever say lose, no matter what. In 1977, I was taken to my first game as a wee lad. Loved it. Loved the hit men. Truly fell in love for life during the 1982 season when I was old enough to understand some things about the old south side. I realized the sox fans I knew were blue collar, work hard, ride or die type people. You didn't call in sick because you made a commitment to that job. See the "day off might have made you a better employee" mentality is exactly what I do not understand, which is exactly a metaphor for trying to lose to be better next year. It's ironic, because 1982 was also the first time I stood in an unemployment line with my mom because her business said "lets close this plant to reopen in Pittsburgh for the better,end of the company". Again, I don't understand profit over people. I'm a loyal SOB from the old way of thinking, which is why my heroes as a child were Walter Payton (the 34 in my login) and Carlton Fisk. I'm a stubborn and loyal person. So stubborn that since the sox have started charging different prices for different teams, I have paid for 3 games because my son wanted to go on his birthday. I won't do it. I used to go to 50-60 games a year. I'm that kind of person. Wins and losses don't matter to me as much as loyalty and hard work. That's why I became a sox fan and sat with Harry and Jimmy in the bleachers as a kid. It's why I would never have been a cub fan. I don't get lazy afternoons playing hooky from work. It's ironic, as I make more money than I thought I ever could and I honestly don't care about it. My integrity and how I make a living are so much more valuable to who i am as a person and a fan. I've never bought into a "potential" arguement for stat geeks. It's kind of like Jay Cutler...he has all the measurables and none of the rings. That's what I think of trading all stars for minor league pot equals results in.



Lip, I have TREMENDOUS respect for you and I can see where you feel like that. What you said is why I have essentially stopped watching the NBA for over a decade. NFL? On its way out too. I have lost so much interest in sports because people have adopted that mentality. It doesn't mean I have to. I don't mean to sound too arrogant, but I won't sell my sports soul for a few wins. It just means I won't support this decision as I feel it's stupid, wrong, and will never work for this franchise. I honestly don't see the difference in trying to throw games for cheaper players for the future than what the 1919 sox did when they said they did it for money and knew they would be back in future years. To me the lack of competitiveness is a black eye on the game. If baseball had a commissioner with any stones, the trades would have been blocked and let those players earn a contract via free agency for the next year rather than be a mercenary for a wealthy team.
Tacking on to an already lengthy quote here but I just don't understand this mindset. I'm not being critical - just that it doesn't ring true to me. My Sox fandom started at birth (1969). I'm not the oldest guy on this board, but I've followed this team closely for almost 40 years.

You say that wins and losses don't matter to you as much as "loyalty and hard work." Well, I went to last night's game and a saw a bunch of young players trying their hardest to carve out a career in MLB and I enjoyed every minute of it. I'd much rather watch a 29 year old catcher who has spent the better part of a decade riding buses in the minors get his shot than some overpaid veteran collecting a paycheck. I'd much rather watch 25 year old Adam Engel roam CF than some marginal but established player if the end result is the same (no championship). The "loyalty" part works both ways. You may not agree with the Sox plan but quitting on them doesn't demonstrate much loyalty IMO.

It seems like your approach would be to build a team through free agency and hope a few home grown prospects stick. I think it's more 'old school' to build a team largely through your own system and augment with a few FA signings. It's fun to watch kids progress through the farm system and get their chance.

Finally, the stereotype of the blue collar Sox doesn't really ring true anymore. The stockyards are closed and most of the manufacturing jobs are gone. For better or worse, a Sox fan is as likely to be an attorney as he is to be a mail carrier and the latter doesn't necessarily work harder than the former.

Last edited by Harry Chappas; 08-10-2017 at 12:02 PM. Reason: typos
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  #71  
Old 08-09-2017, 04:48 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
Tacking on to an already lengthy quote here but I just don't understand this mindset. I'm not being critical - just that it doesn't ring true to me. My Sox fandom started at birth (1969). I'm not the oldest guy on this board, but I've followed this team closely for almost 40 years.

You say that wins and losses don't matter to you as much as "loyalty and hard work." Well, I went to last night's game and a saw a bunch of young players trying their hardest to carve out a career in MLB and I enjoyed every minute of it. I'd much rather watch a 29 year old catcher who has spent the better part of a decade riding buses in the minors get his shot than some overpaid veteran collecting a paycheck. I'd much rather watch 25 year old Adam Engel roam CF versus than some marginal but established player if the end result is the same (no championship). The "loyalty" part works both ways. You may not agree with the Sox plan but quitting on them doesn't demonstrate much loyalty IMO.

It seems like you're approach would be to build a team through free agency and hope a few home grown prospects stick. I think it's more 'old school' to build a team largely through your own system and augment with a few FA signings. It's fun to watch kids progress through the farm system and get their chance.

Finally, the stereotype of the blue collar Sox doesn't really ring true anymore. The stockyards are closed and most of the manufacturing jobs are gone. For better or worse, a Sox fan is as likely to be an attorney as he is to be a mail carrier and the latter doesn't necessarily work harder than the former.
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  #72  
Old 08-09-2017, 06:15 PM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is offline
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Originally Posted by 34rancher View Post
One of the things I have loved about this board was back in 2001 I could get away from "tigersrulewhitesoxdrool" and be near sox fans. I truly love readin what many have to say and respect 99% of everyone here. I just don't ever say lose, no matter what. In 1977, I was taken to my first game as a wee lad. Loved it. Loved the hit men. Truly fell in love for life during the 1982 season when I was old enough to understand some things about the old south side. I realized the sox fans I knew were blue collar, work hard, ride or die type people. You didn't call in sick because you made a commitment to that job. See the "day off might have made you a better employee" mentality is exactly what I do not understand, which is exactly a metaphor for trying to lose to be better next year. It's ironic, because 1982 was also the first time I stood in an unemployment line with my mom because her business said "lets close this plant to reopen in Pittsburgh for the better,end of the company". Again, I don't understand profit over people. I'm a loyal SOB from the old way of thinking, which is why my heroes as a child were Walter Payton (the 34 in my login) and Carlton Fisk. I'm a stubborn and loyal person. So stubborn that since the sox have started charging different prices for different teams, I have paid for 3 games because my son wanted to go on his birthday. I won't do it. I used to go to 50-60 games a year. I'm that kind of person. Wins and losses don't matter to me as much as loyalty and hard work. That's why I became a sox fan and sat with Harry and Jimmy in the bleachers as a kid. It's why I would never have been a cub fan. I don't get lazy afternoons playing hooky from work. It's ironic, as I make more money than I thought I ever could and I honestly don't care about it. My integrity and how I make a living are so much more valuable to who i am as a person and a fan. I've never bought into a "potential" arguement for stat geeks. It's kind of like Jay Cutler...he has all the measurables and none of the rings. That's what I think of trading all stars for minor league pot equals results in.



Lip, I have TREMENDOUS respect for you and I can see where you feel like that. What you said is why I have essentially stopped watching the NBA for over a decade. NFL? On its way out too. I have lost so much interest in sports because people have adopted that mentality. It doesn't mean I have to. I don't mean to sound too arrogant, but I won't sell my sports soul for a few wins. It just means I won't support this decision as I feel it's stupid, wrong, and will never work for this franchise. I honestly don't see the difference in trying to throw games for cheaper players for the future than what the 1919 sox did when they said they did it for money and knew they would be back in future years. To me the lack of competitiveness is a black eye on the game. If baseball had a commissioner with any stones, the trades would have been blocked and let those players earn a contract via free agency for the next year rather than be a mercenary for a wealthy team.
I don't agree with everything you have said but in general I think trading most of the pitching for prospects has made this team unwatchable. Fans like myself throw out money for season tickets only to see this owner put up the White Flag for the rest of the season. And from what I'm being told by people who work for the team, they are not going to try to improve this team in the off season. It disturbs me and other fans greatly. This pitching staff is now worse than the one the team had in 1970, a team that lost 106 games. You can't win in this game if you don't have any pitching. As we all know, this team has no pitching. To lose games in order to have a high draft pick is out and out shameful.

Last edited by Golden Sox; 08-09-2017 at 06:35 PM.
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  #73  
Old 08-09-2017, 06:43 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
If this core group of players in the White Sox system do not win a WS championship then they've failed to achieve what those two other teams you mentioned have achieved.
Personally, I'd be very satisfied, VERY satisfied if the young corps group can put together a run of consecutive playoff appearances regardless of how said appearances turn out.

It's never been done in the 116 years of the franchise.

That would be a hell of an accomplishment for this organization.
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  #74  
Old 08-09-2017, 06:47 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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And from what I'm being told by people who work for the team, they are not going to try to improve this team in the off season.
Nor should they in 2018. They are going to be just as bad.

By 2020 you should have quality pitching in depth. Enough to even satisfy you.

I guess you really appreciated all those 72 to 78 win seasons the past few years.
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  #75  
Old 08-09-2017, 07:03 PM
Boondock Saint Boondock Saint is offline
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Personally, I'd be very satisfied, VERY satisfied if the young corps group can put together a run of consecutive playoff appearances regardless of how said appearances turn out.

It's never been done in the 116 years of the franchise.

That would be a hell of an accomplishment for this organization.
Exactly. We have been making token playoff appearances in between our routine playoff droughts for the entirety of the team's existence. It'swell past time that we start reversing that trend. I don't expect or demand a title every year, that'd be stupid. I do, however, think it's fair to expect the team to be either in the playoffs or in the playoff hunt more often than not. I have always had plenty of criticism for the Bulls, Hawks and Bears, but I have always appreciated the times when they were in the hunt. I would be fine with the last near 10 years of Blackhawks hockey with or without championships. I appreciate the runs the Bears went on in the early-mid 2000s, and I loved the Rose/Noah/Deng/Thibs Bulls. Only one of those teams came away with a title. I just want to see the Sox have that same set of standards, where a playoff appearance or two isn't the highlight of a decade of overall disappointing results. I just want to feel like the team is operating at or near the level of the better teams in baseball on a consistent basis.
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