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  #46  
Old 08-07-2017, 04:06 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Exactly. This organization had Ventura and Terry Bevington as managers in years they thought they'd be competitive. I wouldn't be stunned if Renteria is the manager in 2020.

I'd also be surprised if this organization signs a big name free agent the way the Cubs did with Lester in 2015 to try and speed up the rebuild.
So the leopard can change his spots concerning a rebuild but not when it comes to selecting a manager?

Assuming Renteria and his staff get these guys thinking and playing winning baseball why would it be bad having Renteria managing in 2020?

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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Sox need to find a guy with experience and a winning track record at that time. (And yes I know they are hard to find but contracts can be broken, managers have actually been traded before. If the Sox think a guy like that is the final piece they need to move heaven and Earth to get it done...like the Cubs did.)
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
There's no way to know now, whom may be available in two or three years time. The Cubs had no idea Maddon was going to be available until it happened for an example.
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Originally Posted by 34rancher View Post
Yes they did. They flat out tampered and had it all arranged.
Spot on!

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Originally Posted by 34rancher View Post
my mind, what the teams in baseball are doing (including the cubs a few years ago and sox today) is as bad as the 1919 Black sox. They are throwing games. Flat out losing. Not even trying to be competitive. I hate it and won't support this franchise for a long time. It's sports. Don't give up, don't ever give up.
Agreed: tanking on purpose just to get the ‘golden ticket’ is a loser’s game. Always has been; always will be.

It’s all about building an organization from top to bottom. There are no shortcuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCSOsFe42P8
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Last edited by Grzegorz; 08-07-2017 at 04:20 AM.
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  #47  
Old 08-07-2017, 09:13 AM
jsg-07 jsg-07 is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
So the leopard can change his spots concerning a rebuild but not when it comes to selecting a manager?

Assuming Renteria and his staff get these guys thinking and playing winning baseball why would it be bad having Renteria managing in 2020?







Spot on!



Agreed: tanking on purpose just to get the ‘golden ticket’ is a loser’s game. Always has been; always will be.

It’s all about building an organization from top to bottom. There are no shortcuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCSOsFe42P8
Disagree. I don't think anyone is throwing games or losing on purpose. The Sox did what they are supposed to do and traded away any valuable assets that will not help us win now or in 2020 and beyond and got really good prospects for them. That left us with a team that frankly isn't very good. Like, even worse than we have been the last two years.

That's not throwing games, that's just being bad at baseball. The only other option is to trade for and sign players who are better than we have now which is wasteful or to rush prospects who aren't ready which is also stupid.

The "Golden Ticket" you refer to is a bonus to the rebuild and if we get a top three pick, then that's fan-freaking-tastic.
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  #48  
Old 08-07-2017, 10:10 AM
I_Liked_Manuel I_Liked_Manuel is offline
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My concern here is not that they're bad, it's that I don't want certain guys being called up if they don't have the fundamentals worked out. Moncada and his inability to be called off a pop up is a perfect example
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  #49  
Old 08-07-2017, 10:30 AM
anewman35 anewman35 is offline
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Originally Posted by jsg-07 View Post
Disagree. I don't think anyone is throwing games or losing on purpose. The Sox did what they are supposed to do and traded away any valuable assets that will not help us win now or in 2020 and beyond and got really good prospects for them. That left us with a team that frankly isn't very good. Like, even worse than we have been the last two years.

That's not throwing games, that's just being bad at baseball. The only other option is to trade for and sign players who are better than we have now which is wasteful or to rush prospects who aren't ready which is also stupid.

The "Golden Ticket" you refer to is a bonus to the rebuild and if we get a top three pick, then that's fan-freaking-tastic.
This is all exactly right. With the way the team was constructed over the past few years, we couldn't even win 80 games. What the people who seem to want it both ways (sort of ok with the rebuild, but wishing we could be better now also) is that every trade they didn't make now was one (or more) less chance of something great happening in a few years. Would you take 10 more wins this year (say 70 instead of 60) for a 5 percent lower chance of a playoff appearance in the next decade (made up numbers, obviously)? I wouldn't.
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  #50  
Old 08-07-2017, 11:10 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by jsg-07 View Post
Disagree. I don't think anyone is throwing games or losing on purpose. The Sox did what they are supposed to do and traded away any valuable assets that will not help us win now or in 2020 and beyond and got really good prospects for them. That left us with a team that frankly isn't very good. Like, even worse than we have been the last two years.

That's not throwing games, that's just being bad at baseball. The only other option is to trade for and sign players who are better than we have now which is wasteful or to rush prospects who aren't ready which is also stupid.

The "Golden Ticket" you refer to is a bonus to the rebuild and if we get a top three pick, then that's fan-freaking-tastic.
Well said.

The Sox aren't simply trying to lose as many games as possible to go for a top draft pick. They've also acquired a huge haul of talent over the last 9 months. It's not like they shipped off their best players for a few buckets of balls in an attempt to tank for draft pick position.

Whatever you think of the likelihood of success of this plan (and, yes, this plan might fail), they are not "throwing games" akin to the 1919 Black Sox.
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  #51  
Old 08-07-2017, 11:13 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I'd also be surprised if this organization signs a big name free agent the way the Cubs did with Lester in 2015 to try and speed up the rebuild.
I think they will because if this collection of kids is half as talented as many baseball experts are saying, guys are going to want to play on the same team because of the possibilities. The Sox certainly will have salary space and potentially new ownership.
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  #52  
Old 08-07-2017, 11:17 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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But they did contact maddon while he was under contract and before he had officially resigned. It's why Tampa accused them of tampering and people on the inside know that he was contacted.
34:

Thank you for the kind words.

Regarding "tampering", MLB obviously thought there was nothing to it did they?
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  #53  
Old 08-07-2017, 12:40 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Teams worked to the last day of season to be a first division team. Now a days the younger crowd doesnt even understand what the first division was. We are dinosaurs.
Teams in the first division were actually paid at the end of the year from receipts from the World Series.
It wasn't much but neither were the salaries, something like $1200.00 a man for 2nd place, $800.00 for 3rd place and $400.00 for 4th.
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Last edited by LITTLE NELL; 08-07-2017 at 12:49 PM.
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  #54  
Old 08-07-2017, 01:12 PM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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I did find it humorous that right after Hawk starts pontificating about how RR is getting guys to play the game right, the base running blunders begin.

More and more I'm getting convinced that RR is not the man for the job when (if) these kids in the minors get called up and are actually good.

Sox need to find a guy with experience and a winning track record at that time. (And yes I know they are hard to find but contracts can be broken, managers have actually been traded before. If the Sox think a guy like that is the final piece they need to move heaven and Earth to get it done...like the Cubs did.)
I don't judge an MLB manager based on stuff like fundamentals. I look at how they handle the bullpen, their lineups, the locker room, and if the players are playing hard for them. At this point, they shouldn't have to teach base-running. Every one of these guys has probably a thousand games under his belt between little league, travel, college, MiLB, etc. If a player represents the winning run, with 1 out, and is getting picked off of second as Delmonico was on Friday, there's not amount of coaching that is going to help them.
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  #55  
Old 08-07-2017, 01:18 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
I don't judge an MLB manager based on stuff like fundamentals. I look at how they handle the bullpen, their lineups, the locker room, and if the players are playing hard for them. At this point, they shouldn't have to teach base-running. Every one of these guys has probably a thousand games under his belt between little league, travel, college, MiLB, etc. If a player represents the winning run, with 1 out, and is getting picked off of second as Delmonico was on Friday, there's not amount of coaching that is going to help them.
That may be the way it should be (and i agree it should be) but it ignores the reality of modern day baseball where these kids are coming up with less and less experience. Robin Ventura said much the same thing when his young players made mistakes and it showed me he was hopeless as a manager. A managers job and a coaches job is to manage and coach and if the players need to be taught how to run the bases then you teach them how to run the bases. If they need to be taught how to hit the cut-off man then you teach them how to hit the cut-off man. Major league players used to do a lot more fielding practice during the season than they do now too. It's just the way it is and it isn't unique to the White Sox. There are solutions however, teaching, coaching, letting guys gain experience in the minors, and regular practice, practice, practice.
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  #56  
Old 08-07-2017, 01:35 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Yes, I agree a major league coaching staff shouldn't have to teach fundamentals.

But a major league manager and coaching staff should make his players practice fundamentals.

Not just batting practice. Not just fielding reps. But practicing actual game situations, both at the plate and in the field.

For instance, as amazing as Chris Sale was as a pitcher, he routinely failed to back up the catcher. That's something that Ventura and his coaches should have made Sale practice as part of the entire infield and outfield drills.

I hope that Renteria or his coaches are working with the infielders and outfielders to communicate on shallow fly balls in order to reduce the possibility of more collisions like Moncada and Garcia had.
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  #57  
Old 08-07-2017, 03:08 PM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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It's really striking how much more positive the national media and people outside of Chicago are about the Sox.

Sitting here in Washington DC, whenever I read an article about the Sox in the non-Chicago press it's full of glowing reviews of the rebuild trades. When I tell people who are fans of other teams that I'm a Sox fan, they gush about the recent prospects the team has acquired.

I suppose they can be positive when they don't have to actually watch the 2017 Sox play every day. Regardless, in some way this is the most positive attention the White Sox have gotten since 2012.
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  #58  
Old 08-07-2017, 04:03 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
It's really striking how much more positive the national media and people outside of Chicago are about the Sox.

Sitting here in Washington DC, whenever I read an article about the Sox in the non-Chicago press it's full of glowing reviews of the rebuild trades. When I tell people who are fans of other teams that I'm a Sox fan, they gush about the recent prospects the team has acquired.

I suppose they can be positive when they don't have to actually watch the 2017 Sox play every day. Regardless, in some way this is the most positive attention the White Sox have gotten since 2012.
Perhaps being less invested emotionally makes them more objective. I'm disheartened that a number of die-hands can't see the big picture, but I get it. I wanted to win every season when I was a kid.
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  #59  
Old 08-07-2017, 05:01 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
It's really striking how much more positive the national media and people outside of Chicago are about the Sox.

Sitting here in Washington DC, whenever I read an article about the Sox in the non-Chicago press it's full of glowing reviews of the rebuild trades. When I tell people who are fans of other teams that I'm a Sox fan, they gush about the recent prospects the team has acquired.

I suppose they can be positive when they don't have to actually watch the 2017 Sox play every day. Regardless, in some way this is the most positive attention the White Sox have gotten since 2012.
And it is well deserved praise. This stockpiling of young talent in one year is far beyond what the Cubs or Royals did and far beyond anything I've seen the Sox pull off ever. The future is very bright.
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  #60  
Old 08-07-2017, 05:23 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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And it is well deserved praise. This stockpiling of young talent in one year is far beyond what the Cubs or Royals did and far beyond anything I've seen the Sox pull off ever.
But it should have been. The Royals and Cubs didn't trade an Ace, a near-ace and a 5 WAR outfielder.

There are some concerns; back ends of most of the trades were spotty. Very little up the middle talent acquired; very little attention paid toward defense (which has been true the entirety of Hahn's 5 year tenure).
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