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  #31  
Old 08-06-2017, 07:20 PM
TommyJohn TommyJohn is online now
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OK. Does anybody TRULY think that by the time that the team feels like they are ready to contend, Rick Renteria will be tossed over for another manager? Come on. We are talking about the team that kept Robin Ventura around for 5 years. Renteria won't go anywhere unless he quits.
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  #32  
Old 08-06-2017, 07:33 PM
Boondock Saint Boondock Saint is offline
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Originally Posted by TommyJohn View Post
OK. Does anybody TRULY think that by the time that the team feels like they are ready to contend, Rick Renteria will be tossed over for another manager? Come on. We are talking about the team that kept Robin Ventura around for 5 years. Renteria won't go anywhere unless he quits.
People used the exact same logic about the Sox tearing it down and rebuilding before this year, too. Sometimes, things change.
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  #33  
Old 08-06-2017, 07:42 PM
34rancher 34rancher is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
There's no way to know now, whom may be available in two or three years time. The Cubs had no idea Maddon was going to be available until it happened for an example.
Yes they did. They flat out tampered and had it all arranged.
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Originally Posted by Boondock Saint View Post
People used the exact same logic about the Sox tearing it down and rebuilding before this year, too. Sometimes, things change.
In my mind, what the teams in baseball are doing (including the cubs a few years ago and sox today) is as bad as the 1919 Black sox. They are throwing games. Flat out losing. Not even trying to be competitive. I hate it and won't support this franchise for a long time. It's sports. Don't give up, don't ever give up.
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  #34  
Old 08-06-2017, 08:52 PM
rainbow6 rainbow6 is offline
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Rancher,

Honest question - how long have you followed the Sox?

I've been following since '82. Love the Sox second only to God and my Family. Live and die by them, as the cliche goes.

Having said that - this team has never - ever, ever, ever - made the playoffs two years in a row. I'll never forget pumping gas on a cool October night before game one of the '05 Series and thinking - "this is going to be what it's like the next few Octobers for White Sox baseball. Playoff baseball. More than once every ten ****ing years."

Of course that didn't happen.

I choose not to speak of '08.

Has the "don't give up, don't ever give up" mantra worked for this franchise?

And I see things the complete opposite of your comment about "not even trying to be competitive..."

At years end 29 teams - for a myriad of reasons - will have failed to win the World Series. Come Spring Training '18 my guess is a substantial number of those 29 teams would gladly trade places with the White Sox. Not only in terms of quality, impact, contract controlled players but overall payroll flexibility.

That - by definition - is the exact opposite of a team "not even trying to be competitive."

I'm guessing teams that would fit your definition of "trying to be competitive" would include big payroll clubs like the Tigers. 200 million dollar payroll. Superstars. Big name all stars.

They will be joining the White Sox on the sidelines come October. And feel free to head over to a Tiger message board. Their fans are not basking in the glory of "trying to be competitive."

How about the Mets? Or the Angels?

Again, those fan bases are far from chest pumping about their marquee players and bloated payroll.

They are ringing their hands and wondering how they are going to get out from under suffocating contracts handed out to players who are well beyond their prime.

Or injuries to impact players.

Or being in divisions with powerhouse rivals that look insurmountable.

There is a chance that what the White Sox are doing will not work. I get that. But I will take my chances - 100% of the time - with a group of premium prospects (pitching and offense) sprinkled in with the inevitable free agent signings when the time is right compared to hoping against hope that Tyler ****ing Saladino or Yolmer ****ing Sanchez or Larry or Willie Garcia or whatever **** this franchise was counting on before the tear down was ever going to be supplemental to a winning baseball team.

Eloy
Yoan
Blake
Luis
Zack
Lopez
Jake
Kopech
Hansen
Giolito

Those names are going to having something to say about the competitiveness of this franchise very soon.

My bet is you will be "supporting this franchise" sooner than you might think.

Whew.
That was cathartic.

Roll on more Philie and Giant losses...



In my mind, what the teams in baseball are doing (including the cubs a few years ago and sox today) is as bad as the 1919 Black sox. They are throwing games. Flat out losing. Not even trying to be competitive. I hate it and won't support this franchise for a long time. It's sports. Don't give up, don't ever give up.[/QUOTE]
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  #35  
Old 08-06-2017, 08:56 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by 34rancher View Post
Yes they did. They flat out tampered and had it all arranged.


In my mind, what the teams in baseball are doing (including the cubs a few years ago and sox today) is as bad as the 1919 Black sox. They are throwing games. Flat out losing. Not even trying to be competitive. I hate it and won't support this franchise for a long time. It's sports. Don't give up, don't ever give up.
1. Evidence please. Maddon didn't even become available until the G.M. left for the Dodgers and he exercised the clause in his contract. How were the Cubs to know the G.M. was going to leave? How would the Cubs know the clause's in Maddon's deal? A little to much "conspiracy thinking" for my taste.

But you know what? If they, in fact, did that, GOD BLESS THEM. They were trying to win and the hell with everything else. I wish the Sox had that same attitude.

2. Welcome to 2017. It's not 1955 or 1964 or 1972 anymore. I don't say that to be disrespectful. I get where you are coming from but the entire philosophy that you are espousing went out the door a long time ago for better or worse.

There used to be a time when if you couldn't finish first, you did everything you could to finish second (or third or whatever). You didn't trade players, you even signed or traded for guys even though you knew you couldn't win the pennant because you were trying to finish as high as possible and at the least have a winning record for the season.

Those days are gone and won't be coming back.
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  #36  
Old 08-06-2017, 09:40 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by 34rancher View Post
In my mind, what the teams in baseball are doing (including the cubs a few years ago and sox today) is as bad as the 1919 Black sox. They are throwing games. Flat out losing. Not even trying to be competitive. I hate it and won't support this franchise for a long time. It's sports. Don't give up, don't ever give up.
Throwing games is different than fielding a AAAA team. See Major League and Major League 2.
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  #37  
Old 08-06-2017, 09:42 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Welcome to 2017. It's not 1955 or 1964 or 1972 anymore. I don't say that to be disrespectful. I get where you are coming from but the entire philosophy that you are espousing went out the door a long time ago for better or worse.

There used to be a time when if you couldn't finish first, you did everything you could to finish second (or third or whatever). You didn't trade players, you even signed or traded for guys even though you knew you couldn't win the pennant because you were trying to finish as high as possible and at the least have a winning record for the season.

Those days are gone and won't be coming back.
This should be pinned at the top of these forums. Well said, Lip.
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  #38  
Old 08-06-2017, 09:49 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post

There used to be a time when if you couldn't finish first, you did everything you could to finish second (or third or whatever). You didn't trade players, you even signed or traded for guys even though you knew you couldn't win the pennant because you were trying to finish as high as possible and at the least have a winning record for the season.

Those days are gone and won't be coming back.

Teams worked to the last day of season to be a first division team. Now a days the younger crowd doesnt even understand what the first division was. We are dinosaurs.
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  #39  
Old 08-06-2017, 10:43 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is online now
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Originally Posted by TommyJohn View Post
OK. Does anybody TRULY think that by the time that the team feels like they are ready to contend, Rick Renteria will be tossed over for another manager? Come on. We are talking about the team that kept Robin Ventura around for 5 years. Renteria won't go anywhere unless he quits.
Exactly. This organization had Ventura and Terry Bevington as managers in years they thought they'd be competitive. I wouldn't be stunned if Renteria is the manager in 2020.

I'd also be surprised if this organization signs a big name free agent the way the Cubs did with Lester in 2015 to try and speed up the rebuild.
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  #40  
Old 08-06-2017, 10:45 PM
slavko slavko is online now
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
1. Evidence please. Maddon didn't even become available until the G.M. left for the Dodgers and he exercised the clause in his contract. How were the Cubs to know the G.M. was going to leave? How would the Cubs know the clause's in Maddon's deal? A little to much "conspiracy thinking" for my taste.
That's it! They tampered with Freedman (?) to get him to go to LA. Then they tampered with Maddon while he was still in the employ of Tampa. It's starting to make sense. So when I hear Stoney say that this time RR will be here when the team gets good again, he's either ignorant or out of the loop or knows but is lying for his employer! And besides Tampa is Spanish for tamper!
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  #41  
Old 08-06-2017, 10:51 PM
34rancher 34rancher is offline
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Originally Posted by rainbow6 View Post
Rancher,

Honest question - how long have you followed the Sox?

I've been following since '82. Love the Sox second only to God and my Family. Live and die by them, as the cliche goes.

Having said that - this team has never - ever, ever, ever - made the playoffs two years in a row. I'll never forget pumping gas on a cool October night before game one of the '05 Series and thinking - "this is going to be what it's like the next few Octobers for White Sox baseball. Playoff baseball. More than once every ten ****ing years."

Of course that didn't happen.

I choose not to speak of '08.

Has the "don't give up, don't ever give up" mantra worked for this franchise?

And I see things the complete opposite of your comment about "not even trying to be competitive..."

At years end 29 teams - for a myriad of reasons - will have failed to win the World Series. Come Spring Training '18 my guess is a substantial number of those 29 teams would gladly trade places with the White Sox. Not only in terms of quality, impact, contract controlled players but overall payroll flexibility.

That - by definition - is the exact opposite of a team "not even trying to be competitive."

I'm guessing teams that would fit your definition of "trying to be competitive" would include big payroll clubs like the Tigers. 200 million dollar payroll. Superstars. Big name all stars.

They will be joining the White Sox on the sidelines come October. And feel free to head over to a Tiger message board. Their fans are not basking in the glory of "trying to be competitive."

How about the Mets? Or the Angels?

Again, those fan bases are far from chest pumping about their marquee players and bloated payroll.

They are ringing their hands and wondering how they are going to get out from under suffocating contracts handed out to players who are well beyond their prime.

Or injuries to impact players.

Or being in divisions with powerhouse rivals that look insurmountable.

There is a chance that what the White Sox are doing will not work. I get that. But I will take my chances - 100% of the time - with a group of premium prospects (pitching and offense) sprinkled in with the inevitable free agent signings when the time is right compared to hoping against hope that Tyler ****ing Saladino or Yolmer ****ing Sanchez or Larry or Willie Garcia or whatever **** this franchise was counting on before the tear down was ever going to be supplemental to a winning baseball team.

My bet is you will be "supporting this franchise" sooner than you might think.

Whew.
That was cathartic.
One of the things I have loved about this board was back in 2001 I could get away from "tigersrulewhitesoxdrool" and be near sox fans. I truly love readin what many have to say and respect 99% of everyone here. I just don't ever say lose, no matter what. In 1977, I was taken to my first game as a wee lad. Loved it. Loved the hit men. Truly fell in love for life during the 1982 season when I was old enough to understand some things about the old south side. I realized the sox fans I knew were blue collar, work hard, ride or die type people. You didn't call in sick because you made a commitment to that job. See the "day off might have made you a better employee" mentality is exactly what I do not understand, which is exactly a metaphor for trying to lose to be better next year. It's ironic, because 1982 was also the first time I stood in an unemployment line with my mom because her business said "lets close this plant to reopen in Pittsburgh for the better,end of the company". Again, I don't understand profit over people. I'm a loyal SOB from the old way of thinking, which is why my heroes as a child were Walter Payton (the 34 in my login) and Carlton Fisk. I'm a stubborn and loyal person. So stubborn that since the sox have started charging different prices for different teams, I have paid for 3 games because my son wanted to go on his birthday. I won't do it. I used to go to 50-60 games a year. I'm that kind of person. Wins and losses don't matter to me as much as loyalty and hard work. That's why I became a sox fan and sat with Harry and Jimmy in the bleachers as a kid. It's why I would never have been a cub fan. I don't get lazy afternoons playing hooky from work. It's ironic, as I make more money than I thought I ever could and I honestly don't care about it. My integrity and how I make a living are so much more valuable to who i am as a person and a fan. I've never bought into a "potential" arguement for stat geeks. It's kind of like Jay Cutler...he has all the measurables and none of the rings. That's what I think of trading all stars for minor league pot equals results in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Welcome to 2017. It's not 1955 or 1964 or 1972 anymore. I don't say that to be disrespectful. I get where you are coming from but the entire philosophy that you are espousing went out the door a long time ago for better or worse.

There used to be a time when if you couldn't finish first, you did everything you could to finish second (or third or whatever). You didn't trade players, you even signed or traded for guys even though you knew you couldn't win the pennant because you were trying to finish as high as possible and at the least have a winning record for the season.

Those days are gone and won't be coming back.
Lip, I have TREMENDOUS respect for you and I can see where you feel like that. What you said is why I have essentially stopped watching the NBA for over a decade. NFL? On its way out too. I have lost so much interest in sports because people have adopted that mentality. It doesn't mean I have to. I don't mean to sound too arrogant, but I won't sell my sports soul for a few wins. It just means I won't support this decision as I feel it's stupid, wrong, and will never work for this franchise. I honestly don't see the difference in trying to throw games for cheaper players for the future than what the 1919 sox did when they said they did it for money and knew they would be back in future years. To me the lack of competitiveness is a black eye on the game. If baseball had a commissioner with any stones, the trades would have been blocked and let those players earn a contract via free agency for the next year rather than be a mercenary for a wealthy team.

Last edited by 34rancher; 08-06-2017 at 11:26 PM.
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  #42  
Old 08-06-2017, 10:54 PM
34rancher 34rancher is offline
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Originally Posted by slavko View Post
That's it! They tampered with Freedman (?) to get him to go to LA. Then they tampered with Maddon while he was still in the employ of Tampa. It's starting to make sense. So when I hear Stoney say that this time RR will be here when the team gets good again, he's either ignorant or out of the loop or knows but is lying for his employer! And besides Tampa is Spanish for tamper!
But they did contact maddon while he was under contract and before he had officially resigned. It's why Tampa accused them of tampering and people on the inside know that he was contacted.

Last edited by 34rancher; 08-06-2017 at 11:20 PM.
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  #43  
Old 08-06-2017, 11:38 PM
rainbow6 rainbow6 is offline
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Ranch,

Very cool post. Thanks for sharing.

I guess the one point of contention, or confusion maybe?, with your logic is the phrase "trying to lose."

Do you the Cubs did the wrong thing by deciding that they did not have a deep enough farm system or quality of players at the major league level ?

They decided to build up a cache of of young talent and free up resources to engage in the free agent market when applicable.

This resulted in....

Two consecutive play off appearances (will be three this year) and a World Championship.

In all likelihood they will be a perennial playoff contender for several years.

Ranch - I'm asking you honestly - you think what they did was wrong, didn't you? They should have been "trying to win" in those years when their roster and farm system was sub standard, correct?

Really interested in your response.
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  #44  
Old 08-07-2017, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 34rancher View Post
In my mind, what the teams in baseball are doing (including the cubs a few years ago and sox today) is as bad as the 1919 Black sox. They are throwing games. Flat out losing. Not even trying to be competitive. I hate it and won't support this franchise for a long time. It's sports. Don't give up, don't ever give up.
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  #45  
Old 08-07-2017, 01:48 AM
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I never saw it as a, "Do the same thing as the Cubs" thing. I saw it as more along the lines of, "He did a good job in the same capacity" thing. It's just coincidence that the Cubs are the team Renteria did the job for last. I think it makes sense to have a temporary (for lack of a better term) manager right now. If the Sox went after a big-time manager knowing their strategy for the future, they would risk pushing him away with year after year of losing damaging that manager's career. So instead of going for that manager now, you sign a guy going in with the knowledge that he's there to run things in the interim until the team's ready to go for it. Some may think that it's disrespectful, but I'd give a couple of toes for the privilege of being a major league manager for a losing team.
Why are we assuming that Renteria wouldn't be able to see it through to the end? Because he wasn't given the chance with the Cubs? I don't see any reason to believe he won't be given the chance with the Sox. If he actually succeeds in developing these young guys and puts the team in position to where it has a chance to win, he will not be fired the way he was on the other side of town. He wouldn't have been fired on the other side of town had Maddon not "magically" become available at just the perfect time.
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