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  #16  
Old 08-06-2017, 12:41 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
There is a lot of truth in your comment but I also have to say that the Sox have been bad, sometimes very bad with the fundamentals from as far back as Ozzie's last few seasons.

Either the staffs the Sox have had can't teach the fundamentals or the players they are getting / promoting to the big league roster can't absorb the teaching and are baseball-stupid.

Either way it's been a real issue for awhile, not just because the current roster is Triple A material at best.

All teams make mistakes over the course of a 162 game season, the best teams limit those times and give themselves more chances to actually win games.
Lip/anyone else. serious question: How much should a player know about base running, throwing to the correct base and situational hitting prior to attaining professional status?
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  #17  
Old 08-06-2017, 12:49 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Lip/anyone else. serious question: How much should a player know about base running, throwing to the correct base and situational hitting prior to attaining professional status?
A hell of a lot more than they are showing now that's for sure.

Again I realize times have changed but it never seemed to hurt guys like Joe Horlen and Gary Peters to literally spend YEARS in the minor leagues learning their crafts.

Today guys are barely getting a year in some cases in the minor leagues before being called up. It's not high school anymore, it's not college. There's so much more than just see the ball, hit the ball.

Baseball in general is to blame but managers no longer have the hammer that guys like Al Lopez or Eddie Stankey had back in the day (or Paul Richards or even Chuck Tanner...)

Back then if you couldn't bunt, couldn't execute the hit and run, didn't know how to execute a run down you were either fined or were benched. Simple as that.
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  #18  
Old 08-06-2017, 01:06 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1
Again I realize times have changed but it never seemed to hurt guys like Joe Horlen and Gary Peters to literally spend YEARS in the minor leagues learning their crafts.
They would not have spent that amount of time in the minors in a 30-team MLB with no Reserve Clause and no Rule V stipulations.

It's not just a matter of "times have changed." These changes are not based in an overall change in baseball sensibilities; they are based in actual concrete changes to the MLB labor dynamic. These teams are not acting out of preference; they're acting out of necessity. The Players' Union has effectively phased out the indentured servitude aspect of Minor League Baseball through collective bargaining, and it has benefited them tremendously.
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  #19  
Old 08-06-2017, 01:15 PM
Boondock Saint Boondock Saint is offline
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I did find it humorous that right after Hawk starts pontificating about how RR is getting guys to play the game right, the base running blunders begin.

More and more I'm getting convinced that RR is not the man for the job when (if) these kids in the minors get called up and are actually good.

Sox need to find a guy with experience and a winning track record at that time. (And yes I know they are hard to find but contracts can be broken, managers have actually been traded before. If the Sox think a guy like that is the final piece they need to move heaven and Earth to get it done...like the Cubs did.)
Was it not the common understanding that Rick was to be the "point A to point B" manager? He's here to command the tank until it's time to compete, then we'll move on to a manager who's better suited for managing a contending team (theoretically).
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  #20  
Old 08-06-2017, 01:37 PM
anewman35 anewman35 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
A hell of a lot more than they are showing now that's for sure.

Again I realize times have changed but it never seemed to hurt guys like Joe Horlen and Gary Peters to literally spend YEARS in the minor leagues learning their crafts.

Today guys are barely getting a year in some cases in the minor leagues before being called up. It's not high school anymore, it's not college. There's so much more than just see the ball, hit the ball.

Baseball in general is to blame but managers no longer have the hammer that guys like Al Lopez or Eddie Stankey had back in the day (or Paul Richards or even Chuck Tanner...)

Back then if you couldn't bunt, couldn't execute the hit and run, didn't know how to execute a run down you were either fined or were benched. Simple as that.
Except for the occational relief pitcher, it's not really true that most guys usually "barely get a year" in the minors, is it?

And I think fines probably meant a lot more when every player wasn't making AT LEAST $500,000 a year. Unless they started fining people $50,000 for screwing up a bunt (which I have to assume the Players Association wouldn't like - another thing that's different than the 50s) I don't see how that would work.
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  #21  
Old 08-06-2017, 02:11 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Was it not the common understanding that Rick was to be the "point A to point B" manager? He's here to command the tank until it's time to compete, then we'll move on to a manager who's better suited for managing a contending team (theoretically).
Thats pretty bad for a manager to have a label that he can't manage a contending team.
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Last edited by LITTLE NELL; 08-06-2017 at 02:19 PM.
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  #22  
Old 08-06-2017, 02:18 PM
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Was it not the common understanding that Rick was to be the "point A to point B" manager? He's here to command the tank until it's time to compete, then we'll move on to a manager who's better suited for managing a contending team (theoretically).
This is ludicrous. There is no reason to believe that other than the "Well, the Cubs did it that way" mantra. The Sox are forever being defined through the lens of the Cubs.
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  #23  
Old 08-06-2017, 02:59 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Was it not the common understanding that Rick was to be the "point A to point B" manager? He's here to command the tank until it's time to compete, then we'll move on to a manager who's better suited for managing a contending team (theoretically).
But those plays are fundamental plays, two by veterans in Abreu and Leury. It was compounded by Darryl Boston obviously being asleep. Hanson must have misjudged that Betts would make the catch and was easily caught. But Boston must have also. Down, 4-1 why is Abreu trying to take 2nd and again where was Boston? Why is Leury taking a big lead down 4-1 especially since Kimbrall already threw over. Again, why did Boston not tell him?
Now if they are trying to tank, then it makes sense that the coaches are blind to mistakes.
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  #24  
Old 08-06-2017, 03:49 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Except for the occational relief pitcher, it's not really true that most guys usually "barely get a year" in the minors, is it?

And I think fines probably meant a lot more when every player wasn't making AT LEAST $500,000 a year. Unless they started fining people $50,000 for screwing up a bunt (which I have to assume the Players Association wouldn't like - another thing that's different than the 50s) I don't see how that would work.
That's true. I should have said some guys, but to me even two years in the minors isn't enough to learn the nuances and succeed in your craft.

Regarding the MLBPA, I think it's six years when a minor leaguer can become a free agent. If that's true spending two / three years getting seasoning is no big deal in my opinion. Then the major league clock starts when you bring them up.

It's not like we're talking about losing these guys two years later if they stay in the minor leagues for some time are we?

And managers if they want can still bench guys for stupidity...but today how often do you see that happen?

It's not just the Sox who are "baseball-stupid" but they are a pretty good example of it over the past 10 years.

Last edited by Lip Man 1; 08-06-2017 at 03:59 PM.
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  #25  
Old 08-06-2017, 03:51 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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I don't know if any of you thought we might win a game in Beantown, I sure didn't. Sox are now 4-23 since the break. Houston is next, another sweep?
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  #26  
Old 08-06-2017, 03:51 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Was it not the common understanding that Rick was to be the "point A to point B" manager? He's here to command the tank until it's time to compete, then we'll move on to a manager who's better suited for managing a contending team (theoretically).
I don't think that's the understanding at all...certainly not with this organization's track record in managers. And remember JR has never paid a lot for his managers / head coaches he's made it clear that he doesn't consider that that important.

The only time the Sox were going to break that philosophy was when he had a handshake agreement to bring LaRussa back after the Bevington fiasco. But when Ron Schueler objected to the terms, he sided with him and Tony went to St. Louis.

Last edited by Lip Man 1; 08-06-2017 at 04:01 PM.
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  #27  
Old 08-06-2017, 04:06 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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White Sox plan being executed to perfection. Now at second worst record in baseball having passed San Francisco. Only a game and a half behind Philadelphia. I have faith that this team can catch them. Haven't seen Philly play in a few years so I have no idea how bad they are but I can't believe they are as bad as our Sox!

All of that could be in teal but it is also true. And as hard as it is to watch it's ok. It IS the plan. Bad now, good later.

Watched Winston-Salem on my phone at the same time as watching the White Sox on my computer this afternoon. Winston-Salem won. Dane Dunning didn't pitch as well as he did last time around but he still put together six quality innings and got the win. His stuff didn't seem as sharp as his last game but other than giving up a 2-run HR in the second he still pitched well. That's the sign of a good pitcher.

As for fundamentals, I agree with Lip that times have changed. Players used to spend a few years in the minors learning their craft. For a variety of reasons that doesn't happen anymore so they arrive in the majors with loads of talent but without knowing the subtleties of the game.

Ventura was quoted last year or the year before as saying it wasn't his job to teach these kids the basics, that they should know that before they arrive in the majors, it showed me how out of touch he was.

Rentaria may or may not be the long term answer as manager but he and his crew of coaches are doing exactly that... coaching. You regularly see them pulling guys aside and explaining to them what is expected in certain situations. You never saw that with Robin's crew and you only saw Ozzie yelling when it wasn't done right. I'll take Rentaria's approach for now, thank you very much.

As for the blunders themselves, Hansen's was just air headed baseball. No possible excuse for that. Garcia's shouldn't have happened but it was also close enough that I wouldn't be too hard on him other than to say, "Don't get picked off in that situation again." And Abreu hit the ball hard enough that anywhere else it was an easy two. Should he be more cognizant of the difference the short wall in Fenway makes? Yeah, sure, but over the years I've seen tons of veterans misjudge that wall both in the field and on the bases. It is radically different than anywhere else.

For the most part the Sox have been running the bases better this year than I can remember for many years now. They still need to get better. I really have no idea what role Daryl Boston plays in that good or bad.

And it looks like the organization IS planning on taking their time with the kids in the minors. Not only could Lopez have come up already but Kopech could easily be moved to AAA now. Heck! He could start Thursday for Chicago if they wanted. He seems to have his control down now and that is what he primarily needed. Jiminez could easily be moved up to finish the year in AA and I probably would have moved him and Burger up a level August 1st but it appears they are staying put. Same with Hansen and Dunning.

This accomplishes two things: to give them more experience when they do get here and to get them used to playing together and winning together so that when they get here they expect to win. Of course, it probably also means another year or two if very high draft picks as well which won't hurt for long term winning.
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  #28  
Old 08-06-2017, 06:20 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Like who?
There's no way to know now, whom may be available in two or three years time. The Cubs had no idea Maddon was going to be available until it happened for an example.
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  #29  
Old 08-06-2017, 06:25 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by Boondock Saint View Post
Was it not the common understanding that Rick was to be the "point A to point B" manager? He's here to command the tank until it's time to compete, then we'll move on to a manager who's better suited for managing a contending team (theoretically).
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
Thats pretty bad for a manager to have a label that he can't manage a contending team.

Yeah, to have the skill and patience to 'coach them up' & not be able to go the extra mile to a manage them to a WS championship, based on no evidence, is twisting and contorting logic to a new (low) level.
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  #30  
Old 08-06-2017, 07:05 PM
Boondock Saint Boondock Saint is offline
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This is ludicrous. There is no reason to believe that other than the "Well, the Cubs did it that way" mantra. The Sox are forever being defined through the lens of the Cubs.
I never saw it as a, "Do the same thing as the Cubs" thing. I saw it as more along the lines of, "He did a good job in the same capacity" thing. It's just coincidence that the Cubs are the team Renteria did the job for last. I think it makes sense to have a temporary (for lack of a better term) manager right now. If the Sox went after a big-time manager knowing their strategy for the future, they would risk pushing him away with year after year of losing damaging that manager's career. So instead of going for that manager now, you sign a guy going in with the knowledge that he's there to run things in the interim until the team's ready to go for it. Some may think that it's disrespectful, but I'd give a couple of toes for the privilege of being a major league manager for a losing team.
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