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  #16  
Old 07-01-2017, 05:17 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I grant you have been right before when going against the grain. I have no doubt that you have a broad base of knowledge beyond baseball. It sounds like you have had an interesting or at the very least well traveled career. I have agreed with you, disagreed and occasionally stuck up for you against the howling mob. I never met you but I wlll take a chance. At this point you are sounding both preachy and a bit churlish. The Sox have a plan. It may work and it may not. It may get aborted due to circumstances like having no willing trade partners or changing their minds and going back to the same old same old that never worked. Whatever they were doing wasn't working. I could use up the remaining bandwidth on the internet repeating that statement ad nauseum. So this is where we are. It's even harder for us old farts who remember 17 straight winning seasons and sound fundamental baseball. Nothing lasts and things continually change. Without breaking the rules here look at the world today, change at warp speed. Just got to roll with it. Enough of my rant and hope you did not take offense, just one old Sox fan to another not quite as old.
My point is that I don't think it is a plan, except perhaps semantically. I've seen teams do what the White Sox have done before, telling fans it is a plan and scrapping the plan after 3-5 years for another rebuild. If it is a plan, it is one that has never worked,

The idea that this team should be rebuilt by Hahn because it is a bad team seems peculiar because Hahn has so much to do with this being a bad team.

Teams do get better after being bad. The White Sox won the AL Central only a couple of years after notoriously giving up with the trade with the Giants. But that trade had little to do with the White Sox getting better. Foulke was all they got that contributed to that 2000 team, Caruso was gone, and howry was inconsistent out o the bullpen. Foulke could have been acquired more cheaply.

The result of a plan where you don't build around what you have and go with prospects over proven, controllable major league talent is inconsistency.

My problem is that I've seen general managers build pretty good teams built around the sort of core the White Sox had before the two offseason trades, with weaker farm system and less to trade. I posted last year that I didn't want Hahn to trade for Shields at least two months before he did. I don't think he has done anything to earn the loyalty fans have in him. If you have gone to the trouble to sign good talent to long team-friendly contracts, you need to get more for them if you turn around and trade them in the name of building a winner.

I will concede that I may be selfish, though. I want to see the White Sox win in my lifetime.
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  #17  
Old 07-01-2017, 06:40 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
My point is that I don't think it is a plan, except perhaps semantically. I've seen teams do what the White Sox have done before, telling fans it is a plan and scrapping the plan after 3-5 years for another rebuild. If it is a plan, it is one that has never worked,

The idea that this team should be rebuilt by Hahn because it is a bad team seems peculiar because Hahn has so much to do with this being a bad team.

Teams do get better after being bad. The White Sox won the AL Central only a couple of years after notoriously giving up with the trade with the Giants. But that trade had little to do with the White Sox getting better. Foulke was all they got that contributed to that 2000 team, Caruso was gone, and howry was inconsistent out o the bullpen. Foulke could have been acquired more cheaply.

The result of a plan where you don't build around what you have and go with prospects over proven, controllable major league talent is inconsistency.

My problem is that I've seen general managers build pretty good teams built around the sort of core the White Sox had before the two offseason trades, with weaker farm system and less to trade. I posted last year that I didn't want Hahn to trade for Shields at least two months before he did. I don't think he has done anything to earn the loyalty fans have in him. If you have gone to the trouble to sign good talent to long team-friendly contracts, you need to get more for them if you turn around and trade them in the name of building a winner.

I will concede that I may be selfish, though. I want to see the White Sox win in my lifetime.
How soon we forget 2005...(but I see your point)

I ask the question again, what reasonable solution would there be to get the organization out of the fix they were in for a decade given:

1. That ownership wasn't changing.
2. That the front office wasn't changing
3. That the Sox were not going to raise the payroll to say 150 million in an attempt to sign people to fill all the holes in the lineup and on the roster.
4. That the minor league system was in disarray.
5. That the "talent" on the major league roster was top heavy. Five or six really good players. The rest flotsam and junk.

This is a serious question...not trolling. What would you do since I haven't seen that answered.

To me this was the ONLY solution that could possibly (notice I qualified that) get them out of the situation they were in (caused in large part by themselves...)
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  #18  
Old 07-01-2017, 07:56 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
But the GM should be working to improve the team, and he seems too interested in rebuilding with players with no successful major league experience to do that.
I have to ask: Do you honestly believe you can get inside Hahn's head?

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Originally Posted by slavko View Post
Ya know, I posted that Engel would never hit a fastball with that stance and he singled on a 100 MPH one to lead off last night's winning rally. The difference is that he has the bat moving when the pitcher starts his motion now and two weeks ago he held it away from his body until the ball was by him. There's some coaching going on.
Yeah; it's Todd Steverson.
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Last edited by Grzegorz; 07-01-2017 at 08:24 PM.
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  #19  
Old 07-01-2017, 08:08 PM
sunofgold sunofgold is offline
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That is all I am pointing out. We aren't like 20 games out.

We are rebuilding but baseball is a weird game. You can win games by your opponents making more mistakes than you. You can win games by luck...a couple of ducksnorts or weird bounces. Rookies can outperform veterans.

And if it wasn't for a brutal schedule and a large number of injuries, this team could easily be at .500 right now.

Rebuild but still hope for wins. Keep expectations low. Hope,to be pleasantly surprised.
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  #20  
Old 07-01-2017, 08:27 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
How soon we forget 2005...(but I see your point)

I ask the question again, what reasonable solution would there be to get the organization out of the fix they were in for a decade given:

1. That ownership wasn't changing.
2. That the front office wasn't changing
3. That the Sox were not going to raise the payroll to say 150 million in an attempt to sign people to fill all the holes in the lineup and on the roster.
4. That the minor league system was in disarray.
5. That the "talent" on the major league roster was top heavy. Five or six really good players. The rest flotsam and junk.

This is a serious question...not trolling. What would you do since I haven't seen that answered.

To me this was the ONLY solution that could possibly (notice I qualified that) get them out of the situation they were in (caused in large part by themselves...)
I don't know what 2005 has to do with my point. Kenny Williams built the 2005 team by and by trading Carlos Lee for major-league talent, signing A.J. Pierzynski and Jermaine Dye. Paul Konerko was acquired for Mike Cameron in the 1990s, but Konerko was no longer a hot Dodger prospect, or even a Dodger. The White Sox went wire-to-wire as the first-place team in baseball's toughest division and finished third the next year with the league's fifth-best record, which many would consider a postseason team in the wild card-play-in era.

I really liked Lorenzo Barcelo as a prospect, but by 2005, no one was left from the 1997 Giants trade. Bob Howry had signed with the Indians as a free agent.

You can build a winner by trading for major league talent, judiciously signing free agents (staying away from the Adam Dunns and the less expensive Pedro Alvarezes, the latter picked three places ahead of Buster Posey in the 2008 draft but currently in AAA like the White Sox pick three places after Buster Posey, the first eight picks of the draft being such a sure thing.

Assembling a bullpen is a big part of it. That's what the Giants did to win three championships, sandwiched around some bad seasons and starting from worse off than the White Sox did in 2009. That was more important to the Royals going to the World Series than the Grienke trade. Most relievers aren't developed in your system, and if they are, they're acquired after other organizations gave up on them. The Royals, a team that had long been trading for prospects, traded their top prospect to get the key to their championship bullpen.

Building a winner is hard and, and it helps if everything falls into place. It isn't so much the method as how you carry it out.

Trading for prospects is easy. But the chances of producing a winner are much slimmer, and it requires more luck.

I dearly hope Hahn is successful in building a winning team. I don't see how some of the things he has done will contribute to that end. His record has given me no reason to have faith to make up for how bad things look now, aside from the yet-to-be-fulfilled prospect hype.
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  #21  
Old 07-01-2017, 10:22 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog
I will concede that I may be selfish, though. I want to see the White Sox win in my lifetime.
Who among us doesn't want that?
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  #22  
Old 07-01-2017, 11:52 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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I don't know what 2005 has to do with my point.
You said you want to see the White Sox win in your lifetime. I assume you are older than 12...so you've already seen the Sox win in your lifetime.

Maybe you meant to say you want to see them win it again?
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  #23  
Old 07-02-2017, 08:14 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
You can build a winner by trading for major league talent, judiciously signing free agents (staying away from the Adam Dunns and the less expensive Pedro Alvarezes, the latter picked three places ahead of Buster Posey in the 2008 draft but currently in AAA like the White Sox pick three places after Buster Posey, the first eight picks of the draft being such a sure thing.

Assembling a bullpen is a big part of it. That's what the Giants did to win three championships, sandwiched around some bad seasons and starting from worse off than the White Sox did in 2009.
The only thing, in my opinion, that Hahn has shown that he can do well (aside from locking up a few players to good pre-arb contracts) is trading veterans for young players. He hasn't done much of it, but when he has, it's been an overall plus. The Sale/Eaton #2 trades are TBD, but the combination of Santiago/Reed for Eaton/Davidson was a big plus (even if Davidson turns out to be nothing).
Yes, judicious signings and trades for veterans can theoretically work -but the Sox have been awful at that for the most part, except for 2005. And it generally works when you do that to plug a couple of holes...not to form your base.
Sure the Giants acquired a strong pen...they also drafted their entire infield on those championship teams, plus a series of aces. They also had a great catcher (drafted). What above-average ML players have Hahn and Williams drafted the last decade? Sale. Then where do you turn - Addison Reed? Devenski now with the Astros?
Now if drafting doesn't change, this won't work (and I'm not convinced the poor drafting has changed).
I think they do have a plan, but I can see your point on that - the only 2 trades have been to move guys that were pains to the FO (and Williams has a history of inconsistent relationships with players - Frank was persona non grata for a while, and don't forget the situation with Magglio). They cut a couple of players who ran afoul of Ozzie back in the days.
But given that JR wasn't going to bring in a new Front Office, this is what had to be done.

Last edited by Tragg; 07-02-2017 at 08:29 AM.
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  #24  
Old 07-02-2017, 08:20 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
The only thing, in my opinion, that Hahn has shown that he can do well (aside from locking up a few players to good pre-arb contracts) is trading veterans for young players. He hasn't done much of it, but when he has, it's been an overall plus. The Sale/Eaton #2 trades are TBD, but the combination of Santiago/Reed for Eaton/Davidson was a big plus (even if Davidson turns out to be nothing).
Yes, judicious signings and trades for veterans can theoretically work -but the Sox have been awful at that for the most part, except for 2005.
Sure the Giants acquired a strong pen...they also drafted their entire infield on those championship teams, plus a series of aces. They also had a great catcher (drafted). What above-average ML players have Hahn and Williams drafted the last decade? Sale. Then where do you turn - Addison Reed? Devenski now with the Astros?
Now if drafting doesn't change, this won't work (and I'm not convinced the poor drafting has changed).
But given that JR wasn't going to bring in a new Front Office, this is what had to be done.
Thanks. This pretty much sums it up and now maybe I can leave this one alone for a while.
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  #25  
Old 07-02-2017, 09:19 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Trading for prospects is easy. But the chances of producing a winner are much slimmer, and it requires more luck.
If done correctly trading for prospects is anything but easy.

What about Q & Robertson to the Yankees?

Kahnle or Roberston to the Nats?

Q and Kahnle to the Astros? (Q to take Paulino's spot)

Last edited by Grzegorz; 07-02-2017 at 09:29 AM.
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  #26  
Old 07-02-2017, 10:30 AM
Dan H Dan H is offline
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Going the rebuilding route is okay with me if the team has finally firmly decided what direction it is going. However, other than making this decision, what is changing with the organization, and will the rebuild actually bring about positive results?

Renteria may yet be a good manager, but think about how he was hired. He was already working for the organization, no one else was really considered or interviewed. So he was given the job much in the same way as Ozzie and Robin. He was a comfortable choice.

Hahn is leading this rebuild but he has been part of the organization for a time. Is he taking any different approaches?

Look at the board of directors. They are all old, been there for a long time, and I wonder how many contributions they make if any.

And of course, Jerry Reinsdorf has been running things for nearly four decades now.

I actually like the spirit of the team and things may work out. But it is really hard to assess this situation until more prospects are promoted to the major league level and show what they can do. But I still ask: What is really changing?
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  #27  
Old 07-02-2017, 05:20 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
You said you want to see the White Sox win in your lifetime. I assume you are older than 12...so you've already seen the Sox win in your lifetime.

Maybe you meant to say you want to see them win it again?
I thought again was implicit.

When you wrote before 2006 that you wanted to see the White Sox win in your lifetime, I assumed you didn't mean just once. You wouldn't be so supportive of and have so much faith in such a longshot plan if again wasn't implicit.

You're older than I am, and the problem with a random reubilding plan where you go out and trade all your assets for prospects you have to develop, draft prospects you have to develop and sign international prospects you have to develop (although the latter two are things you can do without doing the first) is that it not only takes a few years to develop, but it takes a few years to see what you have. If you're not going anywhere and have only developed one or two solid major leaguers, you end up trading those and essentially starting all over again.

That's what history shows. You're going to win with pitching and defense. Pitching includes a strong bullpen, which has to be built on an annual basis and often on the fly. Pitching also means getting hitters out on contact with a good defense behind it.

I want to see the White Sox win ever day, month and year. While other people are watching football and basketball (frankly, I don't know anyone who watches hockey), I'm thinking about the White Sox winning.

And I'm getting too old for a plan to build a farm system from a general manager who hasn't been able to build a winning team.
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  #28  
Old 07-02-2017, 06:44 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog
The White Sox are going to win more games than fans projected here during that offseason because the better teams have a lot of flaws.
Meanwhile, two posts later, after verifiable evidence to the contrary is presented:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog
Like many, I ignored the predictions thread.
That's called moving the goalposts.
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  #29  
Old 07-02-2017, 07:55 PM
sunofgold sunofgold is offline
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Just stating the facts:

WC -5.5
Div -8

We play Oakland next. They have lost 5 in a row. But they just swept us. GO WHITE SOX. #WSRAW
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  #30  
Old 07-02-2017, 08:32 PM
chisox59 chisox59 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
You're going to win with pitching and defense. Pitching also means getting hitters out on contact with a good defense behind it.
This is one of my concerns with the rebuild the way I see they have it planned. It looks as if it will include Anderson at SS and Moncada at 2nd. Good teams build with strength up the middle. Anderson has 16 or 17 errors and Moncada had 10 the last time I checked. The way that Yolmer Sanchez is playing this year I'm comfortable leaving him at one of those two positions. I also like the look of Adam Engel in centerfield. The question is will he keep hitting once the league has seen him. Collins is the plan for catcher so I hope his working on his defense pays off....at least that seems to be the excuse as to why his batting average is so low.
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