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  #76  
Old 08-05-2014, 12:19 AM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
I applaud your attempts to spin positively, JB, and you can spin like a whirling dirvish, if you so choose, it's your right..but there are fundamental flaws in this organization that are unavoidable, impossible to spin, and have kept the Sox out of the playoffs on a consistent basis, despite playing in a weak division with small market teams.

The main one being, the guy that put the organization in a huge hole, Kenny Williams, is given further responsibility to make decisions, in a new position. That makes NO sense.

Go and heap accolades upon Hahn and Co for improvements made over the 2013 disaster...No matter how you sugar coat it, bottom line, 2013 should have never happened in the first place
But it did happen, and it has to be dealt with. I think the nightmare that was 2013 sounded a much-needed wake-up call for this organization, and I applaud the change in direction we've seen over the past 12 months. We'll see if they are able to successfully see the rebuild through to its conclusion.

Look, if you want to rehash the mistakes that were made between 2009 and 2012 that put the organization in position to have that terrible 2013 season, that's fine. Start a thread about it and discuss it. I promise I won't post in it, because I don't think such a discussion serves much purpose.
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  #77  
Old 08-05-2014, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BainesHOF View Post
Some of you Ventura apologists are funny. To you, a manager isn't responsible for much of anything. In your world, there wouldn't be any managers in the Hall of Fame and no manager would ever get fired.

By the way, Abreu's totals would be even better if Ventura knew how to make out a lineup.

When the team fades for a third straight year under Ventura, I'd like to hear from some of you Ventura apologists. You have two months to work on your alibis.
Let me ask you this: Do you think he should be winning with this roster as presently constructed?

Because I don't.

At times, I have been critical of Ventura's moves on this board. Who hasn't? If you want examples, I'll cite them, but I believe that is beside the point for this discussion.

I disagree with some of the things Ventura does, just like I disagreed at times with Guillen, Manuel, Bevington, Lamont and Torborg before them. I'll certainly disagree at times with whomever succeeds Ventura as well. We're fans, and we all do that.

But you have to be fair, and I think you have been unfair to Ventura. He doesn't have anything in his bullpen. I mean, it's a goddamn dumpster fire. The back end of the starting rotation is below average, to put it charitably. The second baseman couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, and the starting right fielder was lost to injury the second week of the season, leaving both corner outfield spots occupied by below average players.

All things considered, I don't think 55-58 is a poor managing job with this group.

Last year's team was an embarrassment, and Ventura deserves some heat for the ****ty attitude that bunch displayed on an almost-daily basis. But it's different this year. This club plays hard, and frankly, I think .500 is their absolute ceiling. They aren't far off that pace. I don't believe they have underachieved in any way.

If they were on their way to 99 losses again, then yeah, it'd be time for a change with the manager. But that's not the case.
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  #78  
Old 08-05-2014, 12:57 AM
BainesHOF BainesHOF is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Let me ask you this: Do you think he should be winning with this roster as presently constructed?

Because I don't.

At times, I have been critical of Ventura's moves on this board. Who hasn't? If you want examples, I'll cite them, but I believe that is beside the point for this discussion.

I disagree with some of the things Ventura does, just like I disagreed at times with Guillen, Manuel, Bevington, Lamont and Torborg before them. I'll certainly disagree at times with whomever succeeds Ventura as well. We're fans, and we all do that.

But you have to be fair, and I think you have been unfair to Ventura. He doesn't have anything in his bullpen. I mean, it's a goddamn dumpster fire. The back end of the starting rotation is below average, to put it charitably. The second baseman couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, and the starting right fielder was lost to injury the second week of the season, leaving both corner outfield spots occupied by below average players.

All things considered, I don't think 55-58 is a poor managing job with this group.

Last year's team was an embarrassment, and Ventura deserves some heat for the ****ty attitude that bunch displayed on an almost-daily basis. But it's different this year. This club plays hard, and frankly, I think .500 is their absolute ceiling. They aren't far off that pace. I don't believe they have underachieved in any way.

If they were on their way to 99 losses again, then yeah, it'd be time for a change with the manager. But that's not the case.
Ventura screws his team's chances of winning in big and small ways. They add up. He's bad at his job. He's worse than all the managers you mentioned. But he was a good player and is a nice guy so he gets a pass by some.

Yes, the bullpen sucks. That doesn't absolve Ventura from blame for what he does. To do so is oblivious and/or lazy and/or deceitful.

Despite having a possible MVP, Cy Young winner and the league's best shortstop, the team can't even muster a .500 record. Such a waste. A below-.500 record is nothing to be proud about when you have three all-stars who are delivering big-time years. Quite the contrary, in fact. The team should be embarrassed by its record.

You say the second baseman couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. Awesome. Let's bat the guy second even in August when his average drops into the .220s!!!

What are the chances a manager can at least minimize the effects of a crumbling bullpen when he can't do the obvious thing and prevent the starter with the golden arm from pitching his way on to the disabled list? Pitching management continues to be beyond Ventura in his third season at the helm.
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  #79  
Old 08-05-2014, 01:02 AM
MisterB MisterB is offline
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The problem with hitting Gillaspie second behind Eaton is that Gillaspie is especially vulnerable to left-handed relievers. Eaton is as well, although he got a big hit against a lefty reliever Saturday night. Eaton and Gillaspie are two of your best hitters. You don't want Gillaspie hitting second if a lefty is starting. You don't want to be in a position where the opposing manager can bring in one reliever to diminish the effectiveness of two of your best hitters.
Coming into today's game, Eaton has a .773 OPS vs. righties and a .774 OPS vs. lefties. For his career, he's actually hit slightly better against LHP.
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  #80  
Old 08-05-2014, 01:41 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Coming into today's game, Eaton has a .773 OPS vs. righties and a .774 OPS vs. lefties. For his career, he's actually hit slightly better against LHP.
I was looking at lefty relievers. I read that Eaton had just one hit against a southpaw reliever all season, that coming Saturday. OPS is a vague stat to gauge offensive effectiveness.

Gillaspie, of course, is hitting about .130 less against lefties than righties and is much less effective against lefty relievers. AL bullpens outside of Chicago have lefties who are very tough on left-handed hitters while struggling against right-handed hitters. They come in to get Dunn out. This year they have been used to get Gillaspie out as this year Gillaspie has posed a threat. Gillaspie, like Dunn, needs to be surrounded by right-handed hitters to minimize the effectiveness of the opposing bullpens.

It isn't about managers having an anal-retentive fixation on lefty-righty matchups. It's that there are things managers know to avoid when making out the batting order because they have seen through experience such things can make it easier for the other manager to beat them.
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  #81  
Old 08-05-2014, 04:05 AM
MisterB MisterB is offline
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I was looking at lefty relievers. I read that Eaton had just one hit against a southpaw reliever all season, that coming Saturday. OPS is a vague stat to gauge offensive effectiveness.
Weird, because he has three hits off of Glen Perkins alone.

And if OPS isn't your cup of tea:

Eaton vs. RHP - .299/.363/.410 290 PA
Eaton vs. LHP - .320/.386/.388 114 PA

Point was: Eaton's not "especially vulnerable" to lefties, and certainly nowhere near as bad as Gillaspie.
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  #82  
Old 08-05-2014, 07:18 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Let me ask you this: Do you think he should be winning with this roster as presently constructed?

Because I don't.

At times, I have been critical of Ventura's moves on this board. Who hasn't? If you want examples, I'll cite them, but I believe that is beside the point for this discussion.

I disagree with some of the things Ventura does, just like I disagreed at times with Guillen, Manuel, Bevington, Lamont and Torborg before them. I'll certainly disagree at times with whomever succeeds Ventura as well. We're fans, and we all do that.

But you have to be fair, and I think you have been unfair to Ventura. He doesn't have anything in his bullpen. I mean, it's a goddamn dumpster fire. The back end of the starting rotation is below average, to put it charitably. The second baseman couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, and the starting right fielder was lost to injury the second week of the season, leaving both corner outfield spots occupied by below average players.

All things considered, I don't think 55-58 is a poor managing job with this group.

Last year's team was an embarrassment, and Ventura deserves some heat for the ****ty attitude that bunch displayed on an almost-daily basis. But it's different this year. This club plays hard, and frankly, I think .500 is their absolute ceiling. They aren't far off that pace. I don't believe they have underachieved in any way.

If they were on their way to 99 losses again, then yeah, it'd be time for a change with the manager. But that's not the case.
+1

Very well said-
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  #83  
Old 08-05-2014, 07:24 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by BainesHOF View Post
Ventura screws his team's chances of winning in big and small ways. They add up. He's bad at his job. He's worse than all the managers you mentioned. But he was a good player and is a nice guy so he gets a pass by some.

Good player/nice guy has nothing to do with my opinion about Ventura.

He's definitely developing "on the job"= but I'd take him ahead of Bevington, Lemont and Manuel as well as the last few seasons of Guillen.

Horrible bullpens, mediocre starting rotations and starting line ups full of players no one else wants make managers look worse than they are.

I have full faith in Rick Hahn based on his approach so far- I think he will likely be our best GM since Roland Hemond- and Hahn made the decision to extend Ventura- that goes a long way with me.
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  #84  
Old 08-05-2014, 09:19 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by MisterB View Post
Weird, because he has three hits off of Glen Perkins alone.

And if OPS isn't your cup of tea:

Eaton vs. RHP - .299/.363/.410 290 PA
Eaton vs. LHP - .320/.386/.388 114 PA

Point was: Eaton's not "especially vulnerable" to lefties, and certainly nowhere near as bad as Gillaspie.
Well done, sir.
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  #85  
Old 08-05-2014, 09:36 AM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by BainesHOF View Post
Ventura screws his team's chances of winning in big and small ways. They add up. He's bad at his job. He's worse than all the managers you mentioned. But he was a good player and is a nice guy so he gets a pass by some.

Yes, the bullpen sucks. That doesn't absolve Ventura from blame for what he does. To do so is oblivious and/or lazy and/or deceitful.

Despite having a possible MVP, Cy Young winner and the league's best shortstop, the team can't even muster a .500 record. Such a waste. A below-.500 record is nothing to be proud about when you have three all-stars who are delivering big-time years. Quite the contrary, in fact. The team should be embarrassed by its record.

You say the second baseman couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. Awesome. Let's bat the guy second even in August when his average drops into the .220s!!!

What are the chances a manager can at least minimize the effects of a crumbling bullpen when he can't do the obvious thing and prevent the starter with the golden arm from pitching his way on to the disabled list? Pitching management continues to be beyond Ventura in his third season at the helm.
This is absolutely ridiculous and makes me wonder just what the hell you were expecting from this team that lost 99 games last year. The fact they have hovered around .500 all season is remarkable to me, given the roster turnover and the injuries. But apparently that's not good enough for some of you. It's as if you are ignoring the fact that this team still has holes and needs to find replacements at 4-5 positions, not to mention the bullpen.

I think some of you have a really hard time grasping just where this team is right now. This is not a playoff team, this is not a perennial contender, this is a team trying to become those things. Go ahead and blame Ventura for everything if you desire, that's your right but it also makes you look a little foolish because you are not being objectionable.
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  #86  
Old 08-05-2014, 10:13 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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This is absolutely ridiculous and makes me wonder just what the hell you were expecting from this team that lost 99 games last year. The fact they have hovered around .500 all season is remarkable to me, given the roster turnover and the injuries. But apparently that's not good enough for some of you. It's as if you are ignoring the fact that this team still has holes and needs to find replacements at 4-5 positions, not to mention the bullpen.

I think some of you have a really hard time grasping just where this team is right now. This is not a playoff team, this is not a perennial contender, this is a team trying to become those things. Go ahead and blame Ventura for everything if you desire, that's your right but it also makes you look a little foolish because you are not being objectionable.
Indeed. Ventura is no great shakes at all, and I still don't think he's the manager for a winning team, but this is not a winning team nor was it constructed to be coming into 2014.
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  #87  
Old 08-05-2014, 10:33 AM
BainesHOF BainesHOF is offline
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...makes me wonder just what the hell you were expecting from this team that lost 99 games last year. The fact they have hovered around .500 all season is remarkable to me

Go ahead and blame Ventura for everything if you desire, that's your right but it also makes you look a little foolish because you are not being objectionable.
The team's improvement from last year is mostly due to Abreu with help from Eaton and Ramirez. Ventura's trademark of playing dumb and mismanagement continues.

Who's blaming Ventura for everything? I don't know anyone doing that. Bag your straw man arguments before you tell me I look foolish.
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  #88  
Old 08-05-2014, 11:34 AM
joegraz joegraz is offline
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i applaud your attempts to spin positively, jb, and you can spin like a whirling dirvish, if you so choose, it's your right..but there are fundamental flaws in this organization that are unavoidable, impossible to spin, and have kept the sox out of the playoffs on a consistent basis, despite playing in a weak division with small market teams.

The main one being, the guy that put the organization in a huge hole, kenny williams, is given further responsibility to make decisions, in a new position. That makes no sense.

Go and heap accolades upon hahn and co for improvements made over the 2013 disaster...no matter how you sugar coat it, bottom line, 2013 should have never happened in the first place
Bingo!
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  #89  
Old 08-05-2014, 12:29 PM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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Originally Posted by BainesHOF View Post
Ventura screws his team's chances of winning in big and small ways. They add up. He's bad at his job. He's worse than all the managers you mentioned. But he was a good player and is a nice guy so he gets a pass by some.

Yes, the bullpen sucks. That doesn't absolve Ventura from blame for what he does. To do so is oblivious and/or lazy and/or deceitful.

Despite having a possible MVP, Cy Young winner and the league's best shortstop, the team can't even muster a .500 record. Such a waste. A below-.500 record is nothing to be proud about when you have three all-stars who are delivering big-time years. Quite the contrary, in fact. The team should be embarrassed by its record.

You say the second baseman couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. Awesome. Let's bat the guy second even in August when his average drops into the .220s!!!

What are the chances a manager can at least minimize the effects of a crumbling bullpen when he can't do the obvious thing and prevent the starter with the golden arm from pitching his way on to the disabled list? Pitching management continues to be beyond Ventura in his third season at the helm.
The five or six guys who are having good-to-great years are the reason they are close to .500. The bottom half of this roster is poor. This team has several players that don't belong in the major leagues, and there are at least four guys in the everyday lineup who would not start on a contending team.

I feel like you're watching a different team than I am. I'm just baffled that you think they should be contending. Time to agree to disagree.

I don't know that Ventura is the right guy to lead this team when it's ready to contend. That remains to be seen. But I don't think he's holding the team back right now. Every fan base gripes about their manager. I don't think that our gripes are much different than the gripes fans of other teams make. Most fans think their manager is an idiot, and that other teams have better managers.
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  #90  
Old 08-05-2014, 12:43 PM
lpneck lpneck is offline
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I actually agree with both JB98 and BainesHOF.

I don't think this season is Ventura's fault. The bullpen is a disaster, the injury to Garcia was devastating to this team, and Beckham stinks. I'm generally pretty happy with wear the Sox are this year all things considered.

I also don't think Ventura is the right person for the managerial job, and the Sox won't have significant success with him there.

This offseason is really important. The Sox only have a 2 year window with Abreu and Sale locked up. You have an MVP and a Cy Young candidate, and can't afford to waste those years by surrounding them with terrible players. The rebuilding needs to be done by the start of next year. The Sox need to put the pieces in place to be a playoff team in 2015 so they can have a legit shot to win it all in 2016.

I would like to see Ventura out after this year so they aren't stuck with rewarding him with a contract extension if they win 87 games next year and make it as a wild card.
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