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  #151  
Old 06-25-2014, 12:05 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Addison Reed with a timely blown save against Cleveland just now
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  #152  
Old 06-25-2014, 12:58 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by SoxFanCPA View Post
Where is the smilie for pounding my head against the wall? The win is a team stat, plain and simple. It in no way shows the ability of the starting pitcher.
Baseball is a team sport. Wins for starting pitchers give credit to starting pitchers who lead their teams to win. Unlike the ninth-inning solo home run in a five-run loss, which is an individual stat, a starting pitcher's wins reward him for major contributions in a team's win.

Of course, no stats tell you the ability of anyone. They only tell you what they have done. Does Jeff Samardzija's season stats reflect his ability? He's posted a 4.82 ERA over his last five starts and posted a 4.34 ERA last year. Does his 1.94 WHIP for the season tell you he is going to be unhittable tomorrow or worth the best three prospects a contending team has in their system?

For a starting pitcher to frequently win his starts, he has to pitch deep into games, deep enough to give his chance to take the final lead in the game. He has to face the other team's best hitters multiple times.

Tell Steve Stone a starting pitcher's win total has no relevance to what he has achieved in a season.
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  #153  
Old 06-25-2014, 09:26 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Tell Steve Stone a starting pitcher's win total has no relevance to what he has achieved in a season.
Tell Felix Hernandez it's the most important thing.
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(1) "You have no valid opinion because you never played the game."
(2) "Stats are irrelevant. This guy just doesn't know how to win."
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  #154  
Old 06-25-2014, 12:13 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Tell Felix Hernandez it's the most important thing.
I've never talked to Felix Hernandez and don't imagine I will, but as I understand it he believed he deserved the Cy Young Award the year before when he went 19-5 in addition to nearly matching the stats in his 13-12 Cy Young year. There is a belief that Hernandez had an edge in 2010 because so much was written about him deserving it in 2009 after he finished second to Greinke.

Since 2010, the Cy Young Award has gone to pitchers with big win totals, much to the dismay of fans and analysts who were happy that they saw a trend in ignoring wins. Before 2009, the award went to pitchers whose win, a few times save totals reflected winning.

If Greinke hadn't won the award in 2009 when many, and quite possibly Hernandez himself, believed Hernandez deserved it, it's possible Cy Young voters wouldn't have deviated from winning as a credential for the award. Rather than the 2009-2010 awards being a trend, the 2010 award may be a correction, if not a reward for 2009-2010 cumulative with a wink.

Steve Stone, on the other hand, without the talent and stuff of Felix Hernandez, went out and won the Cy Young Award by doing everything he could to win succeeding.
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  #155  
Old 06-25-2014, 12:33 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Jamie Moyer's career peripherals didn't exactly light the world on fire. Ditto, Kenny Rogers. Neither was "lousy" as an overall body of work, but they don't exactly pop up in my head as great players.
I'd love to have either one of them mid career quality on our staff now. Besides that, who would say either one of them was great, Jamesian or totally ignorant of saber?
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  #156  
Old 06-25-2014, 12:35 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
I will agree, despite the implication in my comments, that wins are not meaningless. I will also agree that, on the whole, pitchers who win more games tend to be better pitchers. However, the stat tells you less about a pitcher's actual ability than many other stats do. Despite that, the win stat should not be ignored or anything - it is part of the whole evaluation.

Now win stats for relievers - there is some ugly stuff.
I think we would have little to argue about. I emphatically agree with the bolded.
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  #157  
Old 06-25-2014, 12:56 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by SoxFanCPA View Post
Where is the smilie for pounding my head against the wall? The win is a team stat, plain and simple. It in no way shows the ability of the starting pitcher.
Where is the smilie for pounding my head against the wall. Try winning games without strong starting pitching. Without a decent bullpen to protect leads a strong starter has handed them. Oh, I think we already are. Look any of you who bow at the new altar baseball-reference has stats out the wazoo. They have a stat they call neutralized pitching. Look any pitcher's w-l record and compare it to his neutralized pitching w-l. See what you think. The most extreme example I can find is our own Joe Horlen lifetime record 116-117 .498, neutralized pitching w-l 121-102 .543, quite a divergence IMHO. One other thing if you can figure out the math and logic behind this tell me why it seems everyone's era jumps in their neutralized stats. Now let me find a softer wall to put my head through.
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  #158  
Old 06-25-2014, 01:00 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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I don't think the win stat should be given the focus it receives, but to say that it is not at all indicative of a starting pitcher's skill is going way overboard.
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  #159  
Old 06-25-2014, 01:00 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Baseball is a team sport. Wins for starting pitchers give credit to starting pitchers who lead their teams to win. Unlike the ninth-inning solo home run in a five-run loss, which is an individual stat, a starting pitcher's wins reward him for major contributions in a team's win.

Of course, no stats tell you the ability of anyone. They only tell you what they have done. Does Jeff Samardzija's season stats reflect his ability? He's posted a 4.82 ERA over his last five starts and posted a 4.34 ERA last year. Does his 1.94 WHIP for the season tell you he is going to be unhittable tomorrow or worth the best three prospects a contending team has in their system?

For a starting pitcher to frequently win his starts, he has to pitch deep into games, deep enough to give his chance to take the final lead in the game. He has to face the other team's best hitters multiple times.

Tell Steve Stone a starting pitcher's win total has no relevance to what he has achieved in a season.
I don't think that Steve Stone would argue that they are the sum total of what a pitcher has achieved either. I'm sure he would point to a guy like Felix Hernandez and point out that his low win total is a result of being surrounded by a bad team and that Hernandez has done everything he can do to put his team in a position to win.

What I have heard Steve Stone say is that pitchers are very aware of their wins and losses and know when a win is on the line. I've heard him point out that if a guy is struggling through 4 2/3rds but he knows he just needs that one last out to get the win, he'll use everything he has to make sure he gets it, sometimes though that means he's pretty much done for the day and will have to hand the game over to the bullpen, which isn't particularly useful either.
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  #160  
Old 06-25-2014, 01:04 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Steve Stone, on the other hand, without the talent and stuff of Felix Hernandez, went out and won the Cy Young Award by doing everything he could to win succeeding.
Wow. Mike Norris, on paper, got robbed.
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  #161  
Old 06-25-2014, 01:05 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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I don't think the win stat should be given the focus it receives, but to say that it is not at all indicative of a starting pitcher's skill is going way overboard.
I think that the win is now being used less as a measuring stick and more as way to have a discussion about something else. For example, when Jeff Samardjiza started the year winless, the lack of a win was used to emphasized how good he had been pitching and how awful the Cubs were. I think that's a good way to use the stat. I also don't mind applauding a guy like Verlander for winning 25 games, or when Buehrle won his first eight decisions or something like that. It both cases it was being used to emphasize how good guys were or are pitching and I think that wins can do a good job of complimenting that.
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