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  #16  
Old 06-03-2014, 11:59 AM
24thStFan 24thStFan is offline
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[QUOTE=Beckham is overrated as a good defensive 2nd baseman in my eyes, his range is limited and is not quick, his arm sometimes makes up for these shortcomings. [/QUOTE]

Many WSI posters praise Beckham for his defense and I've never agreed. Maybe I'm focused too much on the errors I see him make, but I've always thought he was an average defensive 2B.
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  #17  
Old 06-03-2014, 12:42 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Worst inning of baseball we've played all year.

Yes, Beckham, Dunn, Alexei and a few others should be on the block. Not in the Rios giveaway mode, but if someone offers to overpay, accept.
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  #18  
Old 06-03-2014, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 24thStFan View Post
Many WSI posters praise Beckham for his defense and I've never agreed. Maybe I'm focused too much on the errors I see him make, but I've always thought he was an average defensive 2B.
Of the second basemen who have played regularly for the White Sox for a number of years, you probably have to go back to Julio Cruz to find one better than Beckham.

Getz? No way.
Iguchi? Great hands, but limited range and only an average arm.
Durham? Great range, but weak arm and average hands.
Cora? Not in Beckham's league.


Maybe Scott Fletcher during his second tour with the team was as good/better defensively than Beckham (ironically, Fletcher is Beckham's father-in-law). Am I forgetting anyone who played regularly? Uribe and Alexi were quite good at second, but didn't play there for long. Obviously, these are subjective impressions.
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  #19  
Old 06-03-2014, 01:10 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Of the second basemen who have played regularly for the White Sox for a number of years, you probably have to go back to Julio Cruz to find one better than Beckham.

Getz? No way.
Iguchi? Great hands, but limited range and only an average arm.
Durham? Great range, but weak arm and average hands.
Cora? Not in Beckham's league.


Maybe Scott Fletcher during his second tour with the team was as good/better defensively than Beckham (ironically, Fletcher is Beckham's father-in-law). Am I forgetting anyone who played regularly? Uribe and Alexi were quite good at second, but didn't play there for long. Obviously, these are subjective impressions.
Iguchi was better than Beckham.

I'm not sure why people have decided Semien isn't good defensively. He's not great, but he's solid.

We've been spoiled by good defensive SS's for a long time, but the return for Ramirez should be worth it. This team is 2-3 years away from competing. We need at least 2 starters, but more than likely 3. Beck hasn't pitched very well and there's something seriously wrong with EJ. Hopefully, the draft will fill 1 of those holes. I can live with a couple years of Semien or Sanchez at SS while we build a staff.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #20  
Old 06-03-2014, 01:42 PM
kufram kufram is offline
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Any comparisons to last year's team is incidental at best. This is a .500 team at the moment and after a one third of the season and being at .500 eighteen different times that point can hardly be argued. No long losing streaks, no long winning streaks. That is a big improvement.

We may be contenders 2-3 years from now or we may not. There are too many variables to confidently predict that. I'm going to enjoy every bit I can this year. We lost a game because of a bad inning. It happens.
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  #21  
Old 06-03-2014, 01:57 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg
Yes, Beckham, Dunn, Alexei and a few others should be on the block. Not in the Rios giveaway mode, but if someone offers to overpay, accept.
It's definitely a good idea to shop around for a return on him, but I don't see Alexei Ramirez getting traded. He's got two more years left on his contract after this year (2016 is a team option, but that looks like a no-brainer to be picked up, unless 2015 turns out to be a disaster with him,) which either provides enough time for Tim Anderson to develop, or if Anderson still needs another season or two in the minors, to find another temporary solution. Like you said, someone would need to be overpaying to convince me to get rid of him.

The others? Full speed ahead. I'm even willing to go into Rios giveaway mode for Adam Dunn, and if by some miracle anyone shows interest in them, Scott Downs and Alejandro De Aza as well. Any money saved would be enough of a return to not worry about what gets sent back here.

The Gordon Beckham situation is getting tricky. I would think that another two solid months at the plate up to the deadline would buy him another two months in August and September to see if he really has turned the corner.
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  #22  
Old 06-03-2014, 02:09 PM
24thStFan 24thStFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Of the second basemen who have played regularly for the White Sox for a number of years, you probably have to go back to Julio Cruz to find one better than Beckham.

Getz? No way.
Iguchi? Great hands, but limited range and only an average arm.
Durham? Great range, but weak arm and average hands.
Cora? Not in Beckham's league.


Maybe Scott Fletcher during his second tour with the team was as good/better defensively than Beckham (ironically, Fletcher is Beckham's father-in-law). Am I forgetting anyone who played regularly? Uribe and Alexi were quite good at second, but didn't play there for long. Obviously, these are subjective impressions.
My subjective impression was that Iguchi was better defensively. I admit my impression was greatly influenced by Iguchi being part of the 2005 World Series Championship.

I decided to be a little more objective and looked up some stats. Here's what I found.

Tadahito's FLD% in three years with the Sox averaged .984. Beckham's FLD% at 2B for the last 5 years (including this year's abbreviated .968 percentage) has averaged .987. Beckham's averaged 9 errors per year, while Iguchi averaged 9.33 errors over his 3 year stint with our White Sox.

So, by the slightest of margins, Beckham has been better than Iguchi at 2B. But I'm still waiting on Beckham's World Series ring.
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  #23  
Old 06-03-2014, 02:21 PM
hawkjt hawkjt is offline
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After a game like last nite, I like to give myself some time to cool off before posting.

That was a crying shame....Jose was in a great groove right up until that ball went under Gordo's glove.

I am very pleased with the development of Quintana. He has kept adding to his game, and seems very sound physically, which is a huge bonus.

If either Gordo or Conor make the plays, Sox probably win that game.
Dodgers are stuggling offensively outside of Puig right now, and I think the Sox handle them the rest of the game.

But, Beckham is a very good defensive 2nd baseman. He makes some spectacular plays, so not going to bail on him due to one play. If Conor makes his play, then Gordo's is meaningless.

I like Gilaspie a lot at the plate, but clearly, he is just ok in the field.
I can still see him as a platoon guy at third and filling in at 1st base ect.

Good to see Abreu mash from day one. Too bad it was not a game-winner.
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  #24  
Old 06-03-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkjt View Post
After a game like last nite, I like to give myself some time to cool off before posting.

That was a crying shame....Jose was in a great groove right up until that ball went under Gordo's glove.

I am very pleased with the development of Quintana. He has kept adding to his game, and seems very sound physically, which is a huge bonus.

If either Gordo or Conor make the plays, Sox probably win that game.
Dodgers are stuggling offensively outside of Puig right now, and I think the Sox handle them the rest of the game.

But, Beckham is a very good defensive 2nd baseman. He makes some spectacular plays, so not going to bail on him due to one play. If Conor makes his play, then Gordo's is meaningless.

I like Gilaspie a lot at the plate, but clearly, he is just ok in the field.
I can still see him as a platoon guy at third and filling in at 1st base ect.

Good to see Abreu mash from day one. Too bad it was not a game-winner.
If Konerko is at first base, Gillaspie's throw might not be an error. You also don't have a 2-0 lead. Gillaspie's play last night doesn't represent what he brings to the team. The same applies to Beckham.

Every major league first baseman, just about every one in any case, saves infielders from errors on bad throws. Abreu doesn't do it as often as Konerko has over the years. Gillaspie's error was in no way Abreu's fault, but if Matt Davidson hasn't appreciably improved defensively, and the Sox stick him at third base next season, as has been expected, Abreu is going to have to become much better at fielding really awful throws. Maybe that will come with a lot of practice.

Gillaspie, though, is probably the best defensive third baseman the Sox have in their system if you're looking at those who can hit major league pitching. I wouldn't write him off because of a bad game.
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  #25  
Old 06-03-2014, 04:33 PM
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I like Conor and am not writing him off....but, that was a major brain cramp that probably cost the Sox a game....he should have thought about what he would do if it is hit to him....and know that with a pitcher on second, he could take the easy out at third.

Now, I understand that the ball was not hit like a rocket so maybe he thought that the pitcher might beat him to the bag, but the play was in front of him...

Not as bad as blowing the 3 run lead with two out in the 9th vs the Yanks, but close....love beating the Yanks and Dodgers best.
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  #26  
Old 06-03-2014, 04:59 PM
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I think third base is Gillaspie's to lose. With our recent history at 3b I think he has more than steadied the ship over there. His hitting is hard to believe but it doesn't appear to be a mirage to me.

Gillaspie's error was only part of what cost us the game. Abreu really should have caught that throw in my opinion as it hopped well in front of him. It took another error and a couple of tough plays that weren't turned but by no means were they sure outs. He had a bit of a brain cramp, yes, but how many of those has Alexei had in the past 2-3 seasons? He's doing ok for us now, eh?
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  #27  
Old 06-03-2014, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Of the second basemen who have played regularly for the White Sox for a number of years, you probably have to go back to Julio Cruz to find one better than Beckham.

Getz? No way.
Iguchi? Great hands, but limited range and only an average arm.
Durham? Great range, but weak arm and average hands.
Cora? Not in Beckham's league.


Maybe Scott Fletcher during his second tour with the team was as good/better defensively than Beckham (ironically, Fletcher is Beckham's father-in-law). Am I forgetting anyone who played regularly? Uribe and Alexi were quite good at second, but didn't play there for long. Obviously, these are subjective impressions.
They flashed on the scoreboard last week the top Sox second base fielding percentages ever. Beckham had a few in the top seven or so, but Fletcher's 1990 season was I think in the top three. Iguchi was decent but my memory of him was constantly getting destroyed at second on double plays.
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  #28  
Old 06-03-2014, 07:47 PM
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The Gillaspie throws to first all look awkward now. I'm not saying this is turning into a Steve Sax thing, but there is definitely a physical issue with his throws. He looks like he's trying to push the ball after a slight hesitation. If you watch the games you know what I'm saying.
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  #29  
Old 06-03-2014, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by kufram View Post
I think third base is Gillaspie's to lose. With our recent history at 3b I think he has more than steadied the ship over there. His hitting is hard to believe but it doesn't appear to be a mirage to me.

Gillaspie's error was only part of what cost us the game. Abreu really should have caught that throw in my opinion as it hopped well in front of him. It took another error and a couple of tough plays that weren't turned but by no means were they sure outs. He had a bit of a brain cramp, yes, but how many of those has Alexei had in the past 2-3 seasons? He's doing ok for us now, eh?
IMO, long bounce throws are harder to corral than the ones that bounce a foot in front of the glove. Jose ain't PK, fer sure.
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  #30  
Old 06-04-2014, 02:10 PM
hawkjt hawkjt is offline
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The Gillaspie throws to first all look awkward now. I'm not saying this is turning into a Steve Sax thing, but there is definitely a physical issue with his throws. He looks like he's trying to push the ball after a slight hesitation. If you watch the games you know what I'm saying.

He said he caught a seam on his grip, which caused the errant throw, while taking the total blame.

He had a couple of sub-par hitting days...but he has been so good at the plate, no issues.

I like him at third in a platoon system....he will get most starts.
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