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  #196  
Old 12-17-2013, 10:18 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by balke View Post
Something to be optimistic about with Beckham and Viciedo:

Beckham's 1st half 2013:
.335 .357 .443 .800

Viciedo's 2nd Half 2013:
.291 .327 .466 .792

Beckham injured and lagged in the 2nd half.
Viciedo injured and lagged in the 1st half.

I'm not holding out on false hope that they are superstars - but they did actually show something decent when healthy last season.
I would keep both at this point. They both showed signs of improvement. We'd be selling low.
This is a key year, though.
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  #197  
Old 12-18-2013, 12:35 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by shingo10 View Post
Yeah whether or not a team can hold the lead in the 9th doesn't have much impact on the season....
Come on, man. Whether or not a team has a 3 run or less lead in the 9th is arbitrary. Whether a guy protects it in the 8th or 9th is arbitrary. Think second level, please, with these kinds of posts.
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  #198  
Old 12-18-2013, 02:00 AM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
I would keep both at this point. They both showed signs of improvement. We'd be selling low.
This is a key year, though.
I'm not a big fan of either of them, but I agree. For this reason I would be happy if De Aza was somehow traded for either pitching or a catcher.

I don't see anything wrong with Davidson and Semien starting the year at Charlotte, too.
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  #199  
Old 12-18-2013, 02:35 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by cards press box View Post
I don't know, Johan Santana had some degree of success coming back from the same injury. Santana had other arm problems that later sidelined him, though.
Other arm problems as in other shoulder problems. It's a staple of the injury. For the few guys that make it back, they never get it all back (Santana didn't, he somewhat got by with less stuff) and they always fall apart.

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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
Wait a minute...I thought your claim was ALL of these guys were finished? Oh yeah, just an hour before...see, this is another reason it just seems like your pulling **** out of your ass.
How have I said they weren't? I didn't contradict my statement by coming up with a success story. There isn't one. Stop making stuff up.
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  #200  
Old 12-18-2013, 03:30 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
...

I still can't believe people put so much stock in the save stat.
I can't believe major league teams insist on designating closers to save games, even when there is no reason other than an arbitrary pitch count to remove a starter who is pitching a great game.

I am not a fan of the save stat and believe it has had a negative infuence on how managers manage.

Still, the reality is that even teams that don't have a Gossage or Eckersley or Rivera employ closers to close out games. If you have a pitcher whose major job is to close out games when your team has the lead, his success is how well he can do that. All those perepheral stats don't really measure his success. They might tell you how difficult a pitcher was to hit, butclosers aren't paid to come in with the game on the line and the tying and go-ahead runs on base in the seventh. They are paid to close out wins. Unless you have a bullpen where you have several pitchers closing out games depending on the matchups and the work they're getting, saves are the most relevant stat to the success of a closer.
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  #201  
Old 12-18-2013, 05:39 AM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
The only Sox player who pulled his weight, at all, was Alexei Ramirez (offensively that is).
He doesn't weigh very much.
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  #202  
Old 12-18-2013, 07:25 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by tragg View Post
i would keep both at this point. They both showed signs of improvement. We'd be selling low.
This is a key year, though.
+1
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  #203  
Old 12-18-2013, 09:12 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
He doesn't weigh very much.
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  #204  
Old 12-18-2013, 07:04 PM
cards press box cards press box is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Other arm problems as in other shoulder problems. It's a staple of the injury. For the few guys that make it back, they never get it all back (Santana didn't, he somewhat got by with less stuff) and they always fall apart.
But Danks has stayed healthy since he got injured in 2012 and he pitched well at times last year. Danks also seemed to make adjustments, throwing the changeup more.

Look, he is a work in progress, I realize that. But I see no reason to give up on him yet.
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  #205  
Old 12-18-2013, 07:16 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Come on, man. Whether or not a team has a 3 run or less lead in the 9th is arbitrary. Whether a guy protects it in the 8th or 9th is arbitrary. Think second level, please, with these kinds of posts.

There is no need to make it complicated....saves are important. End of story.
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  #206  
Old 12-18-2013, 07:24 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by shingo10 View Post
There is no need to make it complicated....saves are important. End of story.
Saves are the result of important things (being on a good team, being a good pitcher, etc.) but they in and of themselves are not important.

A pitcher with 40 saves is not necessarily a better pitcher with 0 saves. Jesse Crain was probably the best relief pitcher in the A.L. last year before he got hurt. Not 1 save.
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  #207  
Old 12-18-2013, 07:32 PM
Boondock Saint Boondock Saint is offline
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The last three outs in a game are no more important than the other ones. They're only different because they come last, and people have been brainwashed into thinking that they're harder to get and that you need a dedicated reliever who gets the last outs and does nothing else.
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  #208  
Old 12-18-2013, 08:31 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Saves are the result of important things (being on a good team, being a good pitcher, etc.) but they in and of themselves are not important.

A pitcher with 40 saves is not necessarily a better pitcher with 0 saves. Jesse Crain was probably the best relief pitcher in the A.L. last year before he got hurt. Not 1 save.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondock Saint View Post
The last three outs in a game are no more important than the other ones. They're only different because they come last, and people have been brainwashed into thinking that they're harder to get and that you need a dedicated reliever who gets the last outs and does nothing else.
You are correct about Crain but there is something to be said for the closer's mentality. The Sox disastrous start in 2011 was in part to Thornton not being able to close out games. Not all of it was his fault (Juan Pierre) but he was not the same pitcher as the 8th inning version in 2010.

Boondock are you saying that every team has been brainwashed into having a closer's role? How often do starters hurl complete games anymore? The bullpen has become especially important and especially the closer.
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  #209  
Old 12-18-2013, 09:22 PM
Boondock Saint Boondock Saint is offline
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Originally Posted by shingo10 View Post
You are correct about Crain but there is something to be said for the closer's mentality. The Sox disastrous start in 2011 was in part to Thornton not being able to close out games. Not all of it was his fault (Juan Pierre) but he was not the same pitcher as the 8th inning version in 2010.

Boondock are you saying that every team has been brainwashed into having a closer's role? How often do starters hurl complete games anymore? The bullpen has become especially important and especially the closer.
The bullpen is important, I wasn't saying it isn't. What I'm saying is that it's stupid to have one guy who's only job is to pitch the last three outs. Around 30-ish years ago, your best reliever wasn't the guy who got the last outs, he was the guy who got the most important outs. If that's in the ninth, that's when he'd pitch. If there were two on and nobody out in the sixth, that might be when he'd come in, too. The brainwashing comes in when somehow this myth that pitching in the ninth is somehow entirely different from pitching in the eighth because that's "clutch time" permeates the game.
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  #210  
Old 12-18-2013, 10:57 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
I am not a fan of the save stat and believe it has had a negative infuence on how managers manage.
Yet you are the biggest fan of the win stat I have ever seen. Go figure.
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