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  #181  
Old 12-17-2013, 04:35 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
I'm pretty sure the Sox's target of $80-$99 M for payroll did not include moneys earmarked for the draft and international market, a $99 M payroll entering this year still is a 17% reduction in payroll from Opening Day 2013, that's where that extra cash is going.

Also, I'm wouldn't be so sure that Garza or Danks is a slam dunk over one or another, once you start dipping your toes in the waters of veteran pitchers with arm injury history, you start to notice that they all are kind of the same. That Garza is is looking for the same kind of money moreso reinforces the idea that Danks isn't as horrendously overpaid as some would like to think. This is the price of mediocrity in a very financially lucrative sport with limited salary capping.
Danks' injury is a pretty much "you're done" injury in baseball, as history has shown. It may not shake out that way, but unless another guy loses his throwing arm, he's automatically a better bet than Danks. I'm not trying to be overly pessimistic, but there aren't any success cases for Danks' surgery. Everyone else suffered continuous setbacks their entire (and short) careers.
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  #182  
Old 12-17-2013, 04:39 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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The Garza money is outrageous for a #3 starter. $7 million for 2 years of Thornton is equally outrageous.
That's why there's a premium on developing your own pitchers, keeping the Sales, and peddling the rest of them right before they hit arbitration.
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  #183  
Old 12-17-2013, 04:49 PM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Danks' injury is a pretty much "you're done" injury in baseball, as history has shown. It may not shake out that way, but unless another guy loses his throwing arm, he's automatically a better bet than Danks. I'm not trying to be overly pessimistic, but there aren't any success cases for Danks' surgery. Everyone else suffered continuous setbacks their entire (and short) careers.
2014 will be the pivotal year for Danks. If we see his velocity and arm strength return after more than a full year removed from surgery, then he has a chance to be the guy he once was. If that velocity doesn't return, we will be stuck paying $15 million per year for a #5 starter.
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  #184  
Old 12-17-2013, 05:26 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Foulke You View Post
2014 will be the pivotal year for Danks. If we see his velocity and arm strength return after more than a full year removed from surgery, then he has a chance to be the guy he once was. If that velocity doesn't return, we will be stuck paying $15 million per year for a #5 starter.
It wasn't just the loss of stuff. Most of those guys suffered continual setbacks, mostly injuries to other areas of the shoulder.
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  #185  
Old 12-17-2013, 05:42 PM
oldcomiskey oldcomiskey is offline
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[QUOTE=LoveYourSuit;3099729]Saves are overrated.[/QUOTE

tell that to Mariano Rivera
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  #186  
Old 12-17-2013, 06:08 PM
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RCWHITESOX RCWHITESOX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
The Garza money is outrageous for a #3 starter. $7 million for 2 years of Thornton is equally outrageous.
That's why there's a premium on developing your own pitchers, keeping the Sales, and peddling the rest of them right before they hit arbitration.
Amen amen amen amen amen. Tragg you are a man with visions. I agree with you 100%
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  #187  
Old 12-17-2013, 06:24 PM
MisterB MisterB is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
If you look at the 2013 Davidson had for Reno and the 2012 Gillaspie had for Fresno, they are quite similar except that Davidson hit a lot more doubles and struck out a lot more. Gillaspie also played a better third base. I'm not suggesting Davidson doesn't have a higher ceiling. I would love to see Davidson give me a reason to get excited about the White Sox upgrading at third base, but he has to show me something first. And I'm not certain I'll see it in 2014.
Another interesting comparison is with Viciedo at age 22 in AAA:

Vic/Dav
PA 505/500
BA .296/.280
OBA .364/.350
SLG .491/.481
OPS .856/.831
2B 28/32
HR 20/17
RBI 78/74
BB 45/46
SO 83/134


Now Viciedo did have 106 PA's in the majors the previous season, but he also had shown improvement as he rose through the minors, unlike Davidson who has been consistently solid-but-not-great at every level.
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  #188  
Old 12-17-2013, 06:40 PM
cards press box cards press box is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Danks' injury is a pretty much "you're done" injury in baseball, as history has shown. It may not shake out that way, but unless another guy loses his throwing arm, he's automatically a better bet than Danks. I'm not trying to be overly pessimistic, but there aren't any success cases for Danks' surgery. Everyone else suffered continuous setbacks their entire (and short) careers.
I don't know, Johan Santana had some degree of success coming back from the same injury. Santana had other arm problems that later sidelined him, though.

We'll have to wait and see how Danks pitches this year. We have already seen Erik Johnson and Andre Rienzo at the big league level and both may be starting for the Sox this year. Makes me wonder how long before Chris Beck is starting in Chicago? Or Chris Bassitt for that matter.

Last edited by cards press box; 12-18-2013 at 12:55 AM.
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  #189  
Old 12-17-2013, 06:50 PM
balke balke is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Fans are down on Viciedo, who Baseball America ranked as high as 61, and hatred of Beckham is almost pathological on this site, probably because he hasn't fulfilled the promise of a Baseball America prospect ranking as high as 20.

Something to be optimistic about with Beckham and Viciedo:

Beckham's 1st half 2013:
.335 .357 .443 .800

Viciedo's 2nd Half 2013:
.291 .327 .466 .792

Beckham injured and lagged in the 2nd half.
Viciedo injured and lagged in the 1st half.

I'm not holding out on false hope that they are superstars - but they did actually show something decent when healthy last season.
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  #190  
Old 12-17-2013, 08:29 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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I wonder if KW had made these exact same moves this offseason if they would be as highly regarded by fans and media alike. It makes sense that the same people who hated the fact KW regarded prospects as trade chips would be satisfied that Hahn is stockpiling them but I'm surprised at how positive the response has been from a fanbase that has been increasingly negative over the past couple seasons.
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  #191  
Old 12-17-2013, 08:48 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is online now
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Most of those guys suffered continual setbacks, mostly injuries to other areas of the shoulder.
Wait a minute...I thought your claim was ALL of these guys were finished? Oh yeah, just an hour before...see, this is another reason it just seems like your pulling **** out of your ass.
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  #192  
Old 12-17-2013, 10:17 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
Wait a minute...I thought your claim was ALL of these guys were finished? Oh yeah, just an hour before...see, this is another reason it just seems like your pulling **** out of your ass.
Actually the injury Danks suffered is very serious and no one to date has returned to form after their surgery. The only positive is that the list of pitchers having a shoulder capsule surgery is short, so maybe the end result will be different with Danks.


http://www.baseballhq.com/content/dr...psule-injuries
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  #193  
Old 12-17-2013, 10:32 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
Actually the injury Danks suffered is very serious and no one to date has returned to form after their surgery. The only positive is that the list of pitchers having a shoulder capsule surgery is short, so maybe the end result will be different with Danks.


http://www.baseballhq.com/content/dr...psule-injuries

Great article. It appears the author is saying that until a different procedure is invented, a pitcher wont come back from this.
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  #194  
Old 12-17-2013, 10:51 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by oldcomiskey View Post

tell that to Mariano Rivera
The stats that matter for Mariano:

2.21 career ERA
1.00 career WHIP (insane)
.211 BA against.

How many save opportunities you think he would have had if say he would have played his entire career in KC or Pittsburgh?

I still can't believe people put so much stock in the save stat.
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  #195  
Old 12-17-2013, 11:18 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
The stats that matter for Mariano:

2.21 career ERA
1.00 career WHIP (insane)
.211 BA against.

How many save opportunities you think he would have had if say he would have played his entire career in KC or Pittsburgh?

I still can't believe people put so much stock in the save stat.

Yeah whether or not a team can hold the lead in the 9th doesn't have much impact on the season....
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