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  #166  
Old 12-17-2013, 11:43 AM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
I thought I was clear, getting prospects is a crap shoot and getting touted prospect increases your chances of success, thats all the Sox can do now.

I really dont know your agenda on this one.

If you follow my posts you will see my arm isnt long enough to reach my back and I dont do the told ya so routine.
Sorry, my post wasn't clear. I was just trying to make a comment that there are others on WSI that like to cast doubts on most new acquisitions and then, of course it's easy to say "I told you so" later if new players are busts.

I in no way intended for my post to sound like I was accusing you of doing that. My apologies for the misunderstanding.
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  #167  
Old 12-17-2013, 11:53 AM
eriqjaffe eriqjaffe is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Does anyone know what Gillaspie's contract situation is? Can the Sox stash him away in AAA this year?
I believe he's out of options, so he'd have to clear waivers first. I can't imagine that a league-average third baseman getting paid less than $500k wouldn't get claimed by somebody.

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Originally Posted by asindc View Post
If 2014 was the only season worth planning for, I'd agree with you. I see more medium-term value in Gillaspie.
Good point, I may be taking too short of a view. Gillaspie would be a good insurance policy of Davidson doesn't pan out and would give us some depth at first in 2015 when Konerko and Dunn are both gone.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't shed a tear if Keppinger was traded, because the Sox could probably just use Leury Garcia in that super-sub role.
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  #168  
Old 12-17-2013, 12:24 PM
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Even if they don't work out, I love the approach, and the fact that the team isn't hamstrung with bloated contracts. And even though this team will struggle to win games, as soultrain has mentioned, I'm excited to watch the new blood in action.
Precisely. I think they are likely to struggle, but for the first time in several years we will have a young team to watch. Even if the won-loss column isn't what we would like, it will still be interesting to see how these guys develop.
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  #169  
Old 12-17-2013, 12:54 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is online now
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Originally Posted by kobo View Post
It's enough for me. Finally, after years of being fed bull**** about contending every year and watching KW make trades for guys he really liked instead of for guys who could actually help and contribute, the team seems to be moving in a specific direction. They're getting younger, there doesn't seem to be an emphasis on guys who can hit the long ball, and they seem to realize now you have to invest in the draft and international signings. I like everything that has been transpiring and already know I will be going to more games next year than I did this past season. I'm also considering heading out to AZ in March to catch some spring training games which I haven't done for a few years.
Excellent summation.
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  #170  
Old 12-17-2013, 01:33 PM
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The only reason to play Keppinger is to create some trade value, which is south of zero right now. Not that we will get anything for him - salary relief would be a windfall.
.It may be a worthwhile risk because we're stuck with him for 2 more years at a high salary.
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  #171  
Old 12-17-2013, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
The only reason to play Keppinger is to create some trade value, which is south of zero right now. Not that we will get anything for him - salary relief would be a windfall.
.It may be a worthwhile risk because we're stuck with him for 2 more years at a high salary.
Little bit melodramatic?

$4 M in 2014, $4.5 M in 2015. Not really crippling payroll
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  #172  
Old 12-17-2013, 01:40 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Little bit melodramatic?

$4 M in 2014, $4.5 M in 2015. Not really crippling payroll
Eh...crippling? No. But with a team on a budget, $4+ million extra to spend could get you a much better player.
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  #173  
Old 12-17-2013, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by eriqjaffe View Post
I believe he's out of options, so he'd have to clear waivers first. I can't imagine that a league-average third baseman getting paid less than $500k wouldn't get claimed by somebody.

Good point, I may be taking too short of a view. Gillaspie would be a good insurance policy of Davidson doesn't pan out and would give us some depth at first in 2015 when Konerko and Dunn are both gone.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't shed a tear if Keppinger was traded, because the Sox could probably just use Leury Garcia in that super-sub role.
Gillaspie became available to the White Sox because he had run out of options with the Giants where, as a third baseman who could play first, he didn't fit on the 2013 team. Like Matt Davidson a year later, he was a first-round sandwich pick. Being out of options didn't hurt his chances of making the Sox last spring. He wasn't a player the White Sox seemed to be targeting but apparently was an opportunistic pick up. He could be traded this off-season, but I don't know that the White Sox want to commit to starting Davidson at third in April.

The infielder I would like to see traded is Keppinger, who was signed a year ago to be the White Sox third baseman of the immediate future, with Kevin Youklis gone after being the third baseman to improve the team for the remainder of a contending season. I liked the Keppinger signing at the time. He looked like he would be an ideal No. 2 hitter. But he didn't come close to hitting as well as he did before he came to the Sox. The struggles of Keppinger and De Aza were a major factor in the Sox season going sough early in 2013. With Beckham's injury, it wasn't even a matter of replacing Keppinger in the lineup. Now Keppinger seems something of an albatross. Again, he is cast into the role of super sub and being paid what a contender might pay such a role player, but he is coming back from an awful season, as are so many White Sox, and he doesn't seem to be part o the future plans.

I think a lot of fans want just about everyone from that team gone. And this off-season isn't so different from the one after the 106-loss 1970 season when the White Sox traded Aparicio and Berry (the two Gold Glovers on the worst defensive team in baseball) and built a team that would require Dick Allen to contend. But that off-season seemed more opportunistic with a rookie general manager working in his first off-season. In 2014, Abreu, Garcia, Eaton and Davidson would make up more than half of the lineup, and it's exciting to consider. Before the 2013 season, Davidson was ranked the No. 88 prospect by Baseball America. Eaton was 73. Garcia was 74.

Fans are down on Viciedo, who Baseball America ranked as high as 61, and hatred of Beckham is almost pathological on this site, probably because he hasn't fulfilled the promise of a Baseball America prospect ranking as high as 20.

I think there are some baseball teams that seem to work the same way as the broken window-theory of crime and community development. When things fall apart and they aren't addressed, everything else in the neighborhood is adversely affected. Things went wrong on the 2013 White Sox, and the team didn't have the depth to keep the season from spiraling out of control.

The White Sox might not be done yet. I think trading Keppinger and Dunn would make the team better, but I see such possibilities in deep pink I honestly don't know if Davidson is going to make the team in 2014 because the comments from the Sox seem to indicate they think too highly of him to rush him. But considering the pitching staff wasn't left in shambles in 2013, as often is the case with disastrous seasons, the White Sox seem to be only a solid catcher away from being a pretty good young team in 2014.
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  #174  
Old 12-17-2013, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Eh...crippling? No. But with a team on a budget, $4+ million extra to spend could get you a much better player.
The Sox are still almost $20 million shy of their published low end payroll so it's probably nothing to worry about.
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  #175  
Old 12-17-2013, 02:13 PM
tstrike2000 tstrike2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by MeteorsSox4367 View Post
Just looked at his stats from last season: 76 ABs, 3 HR, 12 RBI, 24Ks.

Big, young kid. Third base is all yours, Matt. Welcome to Chicago.
Kepp will have something to say about that.
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  #176  
Old 12-17-2013, 02:19 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Little bit melodramatic?

$4 M in 2014, $4.5 M in 2015. Not really crippling payroll
True, but I didn't say it crippled payroll
The salary is high and he's clogging a roster spot and giving us zero production in return. And that spot is clogged for 2 years and he's immovable in his current state. Hahn has brought in some promising young players, but he has a lot of deadwood to move out to make this 25 functional, and Keppinger heads that list.

Still quite a change from last year, when we're acquiring Wise and Keppinger to improve the club.
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  #177  
Old 12-17-2013, 02:28 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Gillaspie became available to the White Sox because he had run out of options with the Giants where, as a third baseman who could play first, he didn't fit on the 2013 team. Like Matt Davidson a year later, he was a first-round sandwich pick. Being out of options didn't hurt his chances of making the Sox last spring. He wasn't a player the White Sox seemed to be targeting but apparently was an opportunistic pick up. He could be traded this off-season, but I don't know that the White Sox want to commit to starting Davidson at third in April.

The infielder I would like to see traded is Keppinger, who was signed a year ago to be the White Sox third baseman of the immediate future, with Kevin Youklis gone after being the third baseman to improve the team for the remainder of a contending season. I liked the Keppinger signing at the time. He looked like he would be an ideal No. 2 hitter. But he didn't come close to hitting as well as he did before he came to the Sox. The struggles of Keppinger and De Aza were a major factor in the Sox season going sough early in 2013. With Beckham's injury, it wasn't even a matter of replacing Keppinger in the lineup. Now Keppinger seems something of an albatross. Again, he is cast into the role of super sub and being paid what a contender might pay such a role player, but he is coming back from an awful season, as are so many White Sox, and he doesn't seem to be part o the future plans.

I think a lot of fans want just about everyone from that team gone. And this off-season isn't so different from the one after the 106-loss 1970 season when the White Sox traded Aparicio and Berry (the two Gold Glovers on the worst defensive team in baseball) and built a team that would require Dick Allen to contend. But that off-season seemed more opportunistic with a rookie general manager working in his first off-season. In 2014, Abreu, Garcia, Eaton and Davidson would make up more than half of the lineup, and it's exciting to consider. Before the 2013 season, Davidson was ranked the No. 88 prospect by Baseball America. Eaton was 73. Garcia was 74.

Fans are down on Viciedo, who Baseball America ranked as high as 61, and hatred of Beckham is almost pathological on this site, probably because he hasn't fulfilled the promise of a Baseball America prospect ranking as high as 20.

I think there are some baseball teams that seem to work the same way as the broken window-theory of crime and community development. When things fall apart and they aren't addressed, everything else in the neighborhood is adversely affected. Things went wrong on the 2013 White Sox, and the team didn't have the depth to keep the season from spiraling out of control.

The White Sox might not be done yet. I think trading Keppinger and Dunn would make the team better, but I see such possibilities in deep pink I honestly don't know if Davidson is going to make the team in 2014 because the comments from the Sox seem to indicate they think too highly of him to rush him. But considering the pitching staff wasn't left in shambles in 2013, as often is the case with disastrous seasons, the White Sox seem to be only a solid catcher away from being a pretty good young team in 2014.
I think the problem people have with Beckham, Tank etc. is they are ultimately part of the reason we are losing. Beckham has had 1 season since his rookie year with a WAR above 1, and never above 2. Tank has never cleared 1 WAR (he atleast does have some potential though). In terms of Wins above their replacement level player, Beckham and Dunn were EQUAL last year!

The only Sox player who pulled his weight, at all, was Alexei Ramirez (offensively that is).

So yes, that is why fans want almost the entire roster overhauled, but its a collection of really bad baseball players.
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  #178  
Old 12-17-2013, 03:06 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
The Sox are still almost $20 million shy of their published low end payroll so it's probably nothing to worry about.
As mentioned previously, that dollar amount includes prospects in the draft and internationally, of which our dollar amount this year is pretty much taking that up (if we wind up on the low end). Either way, it's still a concern. Yeah, it may not stop you from spending on one guy. But it could on two. It may not stop you on two, but it may on three. The truth is, no matter how you shake it, the roster is weaker because we're paying that money to Keppinger. Because that particular money is part of the budget, and could easily have been spent on a better player or combination of players.

It's the same issue as Danks. Yeah, it's not a crippling deal. But if it were off the books, wouldn't it be better to sign a Matt Garza for four years? He's certainly a better bet over that time and looking for similar money. And sure, in a vaccuum you can keep saying "well $15 million to Danks wouldn't stop us from signing a Garza". But it does, because in the end everything has to fit in the budget.
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  #179  
Old 12-17-2013, 03:13 PM
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As mentioned previously, that dollar amount includes prospects in the draft and internationally, of which our dollar amount this year is pretty much taking that up (if we wind up on the low end).
I'm pretty sure the Sox's target of $80-$99 M for payroll did not include moneys earmarked for the draft and international market, a $99 M payroll entering this year still is a 17% reduction in payroll from Opening Day 2013, that's where that extra cash is going.

Also, I'm wouldn't be so sure that Garza or Danks is a slam dunk over one or another, once you start dipping your toes in the waters of veteran pitchers with arm injury history, you start to notice that they all are kind of the same. That Garza is is looking for the same kind of money moreso reinforces the idea that Danks isn't as horrendously overpaid as some would like to think. This is the price of mediocrity in a very financially lucrative sport with limited salary capping.
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  #180  
Old 12-17-2013, 03:24 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is online now
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As mentioned previously, that dollar amount includes prospects in the draft and internationally, of which our dollar amount this year is pretty much taking that up (if we wind up on the low end). Either way, it's still a concern. Yeah, it may not stop you from spending on one guy. But it could on two. It may not stop you on two, but it may on three. The truth is, no matter how you shake it, the roster is weaker because we're paying that money to Keppinger. Because that particular money is part of the budget, and could easily have been spent on a better player or combination of players.

It's the same issue as Danks. Yeah, it's not a crippling deal. But if it were off the books, wouldn't it be better to sign a Matt Garza for four years? He's certainly a better bet over that time and looking for similar money. And sure, in a vaccuum you can keep saying "well $15 million to Danks wouldn't stop us from signing a Garza". But it does, because in the end everything has to fit in the budget.
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
I'm pretty sure the Sox's target of $80-$99 M for payroll did not include moneys earmarked for the draft and international market, a $99 M payroll entering this year still is a 17% reduction in payroll from Opening Day 2013, that's where that extra cash is going.

Also, I'm wouldn't be so sure that Garza or Danks is a slam dunk over one or another, once you start dipping your toes in the waters of veteran pitchers with arm injury history, you start to notice that they all are kind of the same. That Garza is is looking for the same kind of money moreso reinforces the idea that Danks isn't as horrendously overpaid as some would like to think. This is the price of mediocrity in a very financially lucrative sport with limited salary capping.
I agree with Doub and will add that the Sox have quite a bit of payroll flexibility going forward. If they really wanted to sign a Matt Garza or someone similar, they could. Only $68 million currently on the books for 2014, and just $45 million for 2015.
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