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  #256  
Old 12-12-2013, 11:03 AM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
And Ventura's team with zero experience won 85 games. He then acquired this "needed" experience, and the team won 63 games. And the funny thing is, the people complaining, have zero experience, so using their very own criteria, their opinions are totally worthless.
Well, no, that doesn't really follow.
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  #257  
Old 12-12-2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Ausmus' qualifications - not great, but better than Ventura's zero.

Matheny's an outlier. This dicussion has been had before.
Special assistant to the general manager is, I think, verbatim, Ventura's title before he was chosen to manage the White Sox
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  #258  
Old 12-12-2013, 11:45 AM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by SephClone89 View Post
Well, no, that doesn't really follow.
Sure it does. If experience being a manager or a coach is the only way to be qualified to know when to hit and run or steal or bunt or what pitcher or line up to use, unless someone here has had those jobs, how are we supposed to know what he is doing is wrong or not?
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  #259  
Old 12-12-2013, 12:11 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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The manager is usually as good as the talent his players bring. Until the Sox put some talent on the field, it does not matter if our manager is Robin Ventura, Joe Torre or Smokey the Bear.

Hahn is finally making some improvements, but this team is far from competitive (although the off season is young, and hes made some great moves)
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  #260  
Old 12-12-2013, 01:36 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
And Ventura's team with zero experience won 85 games. He then acquired this "needed" experience, and the team won 63 games. And the funny thing is, the people complaining, have zero experience, so using their very own criteria, their opinions are totally worthless.
YES! The old "only someone with direct experience in [insert field] has any right to comment on absolutely anything!"

That's always a winner.
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  #261  
Old 12-12-2013, 01:37 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Sure it does. If experience being a manager or a coach is the only way to be qualified to know when to hit and run or steal or bunt or what pitcher or line up to use, unless someone here has had those jobs, how are we supposed to know what he is doing is wrong or not?
Keep digging that hole. Does Vin Scully, for example, have a right to an opinion on such things, or no?
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  #262  
Old 12-12-2013, 03:46 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Sure it does. If experience being a manager or a coach is the only way to be qualified to know when to hit and run or steal or bunt or what pitcher or line up to use, unless someone here has had those jobs, how are we supposed to know what he is doing is wrong or not?
Ascribing Ventura's nutty moves to lack of experience is about as respectful an explanation as I can think of.
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  #263  
Old 12-12-2013, 06:15 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Keep digging that hole. Does Vin Scully, for example, have a right to an opinion on such things, or no?
I believe so, but again, I am not the one saying someone isn't qualified for a job because they haven't done that job before. I think Robin's experience in baseball more than made up for any lack of managerial experience. Why is it people on message boards think they can understand the game better than he can by watching on television when he has spent most of his adult life in a major league clubhouse?

Besides, Robin's team did better before he got experience. That isn't a concern anymore. He has been a manager for 2 years.
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  #264  
Old 12-12-2013, 07:03 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
I believe so, but again, I am not the one saying someone isn't qualified for a job because they haven't done that job before. I think Robin's experience in baseball more than made up for any lack of managerial experience. Why is it people on message boards think they can understand the game better than he can by watching on television when he has spent most of his adult life in a major league clubhouse?

Besides, Robin's team did better before he got experience. That isn't a concern anymore. He has been a manager for 2 years.
And Ozzie Guillen was a better manager before he got experience.

I think experience as defined by most here is overrated. Coaching in the minors, even managing in the minors doesn't develop major league managers, although managing successfully in the minors can show a team what a manager can do as a manager. When the White Sox hired Roland Hemond, Hemond hired Chuck Tanner from the his old organization knowing that Tanner thought outside the box, and the Chicago media spent a great deal of time comparing the rookie manager to Leo Durocher, who beat out Babe Ruth for the Dodgers top job back in the day. I doubt there is anything Robin Ventura doesn't know about baseball that he would have learned coaching.

Since I've been following baseball, which goes back to Leo Durocher with the Cubs, the Cubs probably more than any other team have sought out managers who were supposed to be the best available, rather than just experienced and very good. And yet, there are people who blame Durocher and Dusty Baker and even Lou Piniella for Cubs teams not winning.

There are little things, of course. Before Don Mattingly became manager, there was a game where he was filling in for his ejected Dodgers manager, he made a double trip to the mound to talk to a pitcher, turning around on his way to the dugout to point out one more thing. Bruce Bochy, as experienced a manager as there is right now in the majors, pointed it out to the umpire, and the pitcher had to come out. The unready bullpen gave up the lead and lost the game.

But experienced managers can make stupid mistakes as well. Bochy's team last summer batted out of turn, costing them a run in a 4-2 loss to the Dodgers. Terry Bevington had quite a bit of minor league experience when he signaled to the White Sox bullpen to change pitchers with no one warming up. Dick Williams had been to the World Series three times when he wrote Nolan Ryan's in the lineup card on a night he wasn't scheduled to start, forcing him to face at least one White Sox batter unrested and barely warmed up.

Every manager knows the percentages. Managing isn't simply about playing the percentages, although the more percentages favor your team relative to the opposition, the more a winning manager plays them. Often winning, especially for underdogs, is about thinking outside the box. And I don't have an academic problem who is more concerned with doing things in an effort to win if they are counter to percentages than playing the percentages because he will come under less criticism if the moves don't work.

I don't always agree with Ventura's moves, but I don't have the burden he does.
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  #265  
Old 12-12-2013, 08:24 PM
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No reason to be so damn reasonable about it.
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  #266  
Old 12-12-2013, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
And Ozzie Guillen was a better manager before he got experience.

I think experience as defined by most here is overrated. Coaching in the minors, even managing in the minors doesn't develop major league managers, although managing successfully in the minors can show a team what a manager can do as a manager. When the White Sox hired Roland Hemond, Hemond hired Chuck Tanner from the his old organization knowing that Tanner thought outside the box, and the Chicago media spent a great deal of time comparing the rookie manager to Leo Durocher, who beat out Babe Ruth for the Dodgers top job back in the day. I doubt there is anything Robin Ventura doesn't know about baseball that he would have learned coaching.

Since I've been following baseball, which goes back to Leo Durocher with the Cubs, the Cubs probably more than any other team have sought out managers who were supposed to be the best available, rather than just experienced and very good. And yet, there are people who blame Durocher and Dusty Baker and even Lou Piniella for Cubs teams not winning.

There are little things, of course. Before Don Mattingly became manager, there was a game where he was filling in for his ejected Dodgers manager, he made a double trip to the mound to talk to a pitcher, turning around on his way to the dugout to point out one more thing. Bruce Bochy, as experienced a manager as there is right now in the majors, pointed it out to the umpire, and the pitcher had to come out. The unready bullpen gave up the lead and lost the game.

But experienced managers can make stupid mistakes as well. Bochy's team last summer batted out of turn, costing them a run in a 4-2 loss to the Dodgers. Terry Bevington had quite a bit of minor league experience when he signaled to the White Sox bullpen to change pitchers with no one warming up. Dick Williams had been to the World Series three times when he wrote Nolan Ryan's in the lineup card on a night he wasn't scheduled to start, forcing him to face at least one White Sox batter unrested and barely warmed up.

Every manager knows the percentages. Managing isn't simply about playing the percentages, although the more percentages favor your team relative to the opposition, the more a winning manager plays them. Often winning, especially for underdogs, is about thinking outside the box. And I don't have an academic problem who is more concerned with doing things in an effort to win if they are counter to percentages than playing the percentages because he will come under less criticism if the moves don't work.

I don't always agree with Ventura's moves, but I don't have the burden he does.
For me it's not so much understanding the ins and outs of basic baseball strategy and logistics and more about how to manage personalities and lead a team. It's a big difference from playing the game and leading the players. There's also the issue of how to react and of course practicing thinking about the 10 different things at a single time that a manager might have to think about at any given moment (though obviously not continuously).

Good managers instinctively reach for the right decision, not because they have some innate talent but because they have done it before time and time again and they know the right decision to make based on their experience in similar situations in the past. Again, that's a lot different from even a guy who is responsible for setting the defense in the infield or relaying signs from the manager/coach.

For these reasons, I'd prefer PK got at least a year sitting on a bench being a hitting coach or coaching first so he could see some of the things managers have to adjust to as they happen.

While knowing when to call for a bunt or a lefty reliever or make a double switch are basic parts of baseball which someone like PK should understand by now, there's a big difference between knowing and doing even in a sport that moves as slowly as baseball does.

Just my $0.02...
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  #267  
Old 12-12-2013, 10:45 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Ive mentioned this before, with the number of coaches now on the big league staff, the managers key roles are dealing with the media, coordinating his staff and personnel issues with his players. I really dont think a manager has to have a great amount of baseball knowledge these days as long as he has a good staff.
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  #268  
Old 12-12-2013, 11:40 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is online now
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
For me it's not so much understanding the ins and outs of basic baseball strategy and logistics and more about how to manage personalities and lead a team. It's a big difference from playing the game and leading the players. There's also the issue of how to react and of course practicing thinking about the 10 different things at a single time that a manager might have to think about at any given moment (though obviously not continuously).

Good managers instinctively reach for the right decision, not because they have some innate talent but because they have done it before time and time again and they know the right decision to make based on their experience in similar situations in the past. Again, that's a lot different from even a guy who is responsible for setting the defense in the infield or relaying signs from the manager/coach.

For these reasons, I'd prefer PK got at least a year sitting on a bench being a hitting coach or coaching first so he could see some of the things managers have to adjust to as they happen.

While knowing when to call for a bunt or a lefty reliever or make a double switch are basic parts of baseball which someone like PK should understand by now, there's a big difference between knowing and doing even in a sport that moves as slowly as baseball does.


Just my $0.02...
It's been mentioned a bit here of late, but I still doubt that PK is being groomed for manager. He doesn't seem to have the personality or demeanor for it to me.
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  #269  
Old 12-13-2013, 12:23 AM
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It's been mentioned a bit here of late, but I still doubt that PK is being groomed for manager. He doesn't seem to have the personality or demeanor for it to me.
Might well be true. In general you want a manager who will stay calm no matter what's going on and only use emotion rarely to try to make a point. Not sure PK can do that. He's had a hard time in the past keeping his mouth shut when the cameras start rolling. He's grown up a bit since then, but will he be able to maintain a cool demeanor when the team loses 6 in a row and plays like crap in 3 of the games?
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  #270  
Old 12-13-2013, 01:09 AM
DSpivack DSpivack is online now
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Might well be true. In general you want a manager who will stay calm no matter what's going on and only use emotion rarely to try to make a point. Not sure PK can do that. He's had a hard time in the past keeping his mouth shut when the cameras start rolling. He's grown up a bit since then, but will he be able to maintain a cool demeanor when the team loses 6 in a row and plays like crap in 3 of the games?
Well, we recently had a manager who can never keep his mouth shut, and that turned out alright for at least the first couple season.

PK has always seemed to me to be not the most vocal of players, an odd fit for a captain; one who leads by example, not by vocalizing it or trying to serve as the team's spark or anything like that.
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