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  #241  
Old 12-12-2013, 08:34 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by 34 Inch Stick View Post
Weren't the Sox the third wheel on both trades, added to the negotiations by both teams after straightforward talks broke down?
Detroit was the third wheel in the Peavy trade. They were brought in because they had a prospect Williams liked, while Boston did not (among their prospects they were willing to give up)
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  #242  
Old 12-12-2013, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Detroit was the third wheel in the Peavy trade. They were brought in because they had a prospect Williams liked, while Boston did not (among their prospects they were willing to give up)
Yes, the Peavy/Red Sox rumors had been swirling for a while, but the Red Sox had to bring in Detroit because they weren't willing to give up any of their top prospects for Peavy.
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  #243  
Old 12-12-2013, 09:15 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Errors are probative of defensive problems.
Lack of errors are not probative of defensive prowess.
They both can tell a part of a story but definitely are not the whole story. If for example you see a guy with low errors, high range and assists for their given position you can conclude they are probably an elite fielder.

The same can be said in reverse. Having high errors, low range and low assist totals probably means you suck at your defensive job.

But in a vacuum errors don't mean much. It is quite possible to be a high error, high range/assist guy ala Jose Valentin and to some extent Alexei Ramirez.

Errors being subjective calls it's hard to give them much weight.
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  #244  
Old 12-12-2013, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Errors being subjective calls it's hard to give them much weight.
Yeah, exactly, I remember Orlando Cabrera calling the Sox official scorer during a game to protest an error he had been given and apparently, it was later overturned.

I'm suspect of defensive metrics in general, but errors and fielding percentage pretty much don't mean anything.
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  #245  
Old 12-12-2013, 09:32 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
Didnt Carlos (The Statue) Lee have a year with the Sox where he didnt make an error in left field?
Yes in 2004 he handled 293 chances without an error. He wasn't too hot in the field, but I loved the way he brought misery to the Cubs.
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  #246  
Old 12-12-2013, 09:32 AM
cws05champ cws05champ is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Yeah, exactly, I remember Orlando Cabrera calling the Sox official scorer during a game to protest an error he had been given and apparently, it was later overturned.

I'm suspect of defensive metrics in general, but errors and fielding percentage pretty much don't mean anything.
Apparently the 2013 White Sox agree with you.....they thought that committing errors really didn't matter.
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  #247  
Old 12-12-2013, 09:41 AM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Yeah, exactly, I remember Orlando Cabrera calling the Sox official scorer during a game to protest an error he had been given and apparently, it was later overturned.

I'm suspect of defensive metrics in general, but errors and fielding percentage pretty much don't mean anything.
It honestly blows my mind that those stats are even used anymore. People have known of their limitations for decades and decades...

Branch Rickey:

Quote:
"Fielding averages? Utterly worthless as a yardstick. They are not only misleading, but deceiving. Take Zeke Bonura, the old White Sox first baseman, generally regarded as a poor fielder. The fielding averages showed that he led American League in fielding for three years. Why? Zeke had "good hands"! Anything he reached, he held. Result: an absence of errors. But he was also slow moving and did not cover much territory. Balls that a quicker man may have fielded went for base hits, but the fielding averages do not reflect this."
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  #248  
Old 12-12-2013, 09:48 AM
HaroMaster87 HaroMaster87 is offline
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Quote:
"Fielding averages? Utterly worthless as a yardstick. They are not only misleading, but deceiving. Take Zeke Bonura, the old White Sox first baseman, generally regarded as a poor fielder. The fielding averages showed that he led American League in fielding for three years. Why? Zeke had "good hands"! Anything he reached, he held. Result: an absence of errors. But he was also slow moving and did not cover much territory. Balls that a quicker man may have fielded went for base hits, but the fielding averages do not reflect this."

A la Ryne Sandberg...
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  #249  
Old 12-12-2013, 10:12 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by cws05champ View Post
Apparently the 2013 White Sox agree with you.....they thought that committing errors really didn't matter.
Nicely played
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  #250  
Old 12-12-2013, 10:42 AM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaroMaster87 View Post
Quote:
"Fielding averages? Utterly worthless as a yardstick. They are not only misleading, but deceiving. Take Zeke Bonura, the old White Sox first baseman, generally regarded as a poor fielder. The fielding averages showed that he led American League in fielding for three years. Why? Zeke had "good hands"! Anything he reached, he held. Result: an absence of errors. But he was also slow moving and did not cover much territory. Balls that a quicker man may have fielded went for base hits, but the fielding averages do not reflect this."

A la Ryne Sandberg...
Or Gordon Beckham.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #251  
Old 12-12-2013, 11:44 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaroMaster87 View Post
Quote:
"Fielding averages? Utterly worthless as a yardstick. They are not only misleading, but deceiving. Take Zeke Bonura, the old White Sox first baseman, generally regarded as a poor fielder. The fielding averages showed that he led American League in fielding for three years. Why? Zeke had "good hands"! Anything he reached, he held. Result: an absence of errors. But he was also slow moving and did not cover much territory. Balls that a quicker man may have fielded went for base hits, but the fielding averages do not reflect this."

A la Ryne Sandberg...
I used to hear the Zeke Bonura example ued 40 years agowhen people were talking about fielding percentage being a questionable stat. I even read a Chicago Tribune columnist who wrote that Bonura had an errorless season, but he never moved for a ground ball to his right or left. I must have misread that, though, because when I looked it up, I found that Bonura made a lot of errors for a first baseman by today's standards. He was in double-digits in three of his seven seasons, although he only committed five as a rookie. Maybe he took so many throws for outs at first that he led the league in fielding percentage, but for his career, he was only slightly ahead of the league average. Baseball reference says his average was .992 for his career in which the league average was .991. Still, Bonura wasn't considered average defensively, as I understand it.

I don't think anyone in my lifetime has given much weight to fielding averages, especially for first basemen. Taking a perfect throw from a shortstop on a routine grounder holds the same weight as catching a foul pop up, catching a throw bare-handed that Mark Buehrle flipped between his legs or throwing out a runner at the plate after making a diving stop on a drawn-in infield.

Errors, on the other hand, are a red flag because they are plays that should have been made. But they dtill don't tell you much. An outfielder with a lot of errors might not be dropping fly balls. The highest number of outfield errors come from throws, which don't have to be that bad to get an error. If a throw bounces into a fielder who misses it, thr error is going to go to the thrower. In the outfield, you have more errors on balls that get by fielders or are fumbled by fielders after they hit the ground than dropped fly balls. And we've all seen outfielders who appear to be camped uner balls that land 10 feet behind them for hits. The line between a hit and an error can be a fine one, and when I was a kid, Ron Santo a few times bullied official scorers into changing his errors into hits.

In the end, errors are more useful in determning a pttcher's earned runs than determning who is a better fielder. And even then, there are earned runs where the pitchers should bear much of the blame. You can be a great fielder and make very few errors, but you don't have to be a great fielder to make very few errors.

All stats are out of context. Even contextual splits are a bit out of context. If you get a hit wiht a runner in scoring position because it hit the basseunner or dribbled halfway up the third baseline with a runner at second or came with your team down six with two outs in the ninth, it still looks the same as the one that broke a tie in the bottom of the eighth. But fielding stats are the most out of context of them all.
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  #252  
Old 12-13-2013, 06:39 AM
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roylestillman roylestillman is offline
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Listened to Eaton's interview on Mully and Hanley yesterday. Man I hope he's good, because it looks like we finally have a guy that has a personality on the team. Effortlessly funny. When informed that the windchill was -20' he said, "Yeah, I was looking at the weather and I thought, well, that's gotta change."
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  #253  
Old 12-13-2013, 07:31 AM
aryzner aryzner is offline
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People have been talking about errors in this thread. I do not think that they are completely worthless. In some cases, I think they show issues to be concerned about. Look at Ryan Zimmerman from last year and his throwing errors. He was throwing the ball away pretty often on routine plays.

Luckily, we have Fangraphs (among other sites, maybe?) which separates the Fielding Errors from the Throwing Errors in its stats.
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  #254  
Old 01-03-2014, 08:14 AM
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Anonymous Diamondbacks player says that Eaton is a selfish player and losing him was "addition by subtraction" for Arizona

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...trade/4283937/

Take it for what it's worth
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  #255  
Old 01-03-2014, 08:47 AM
SoxSpeed22 SoxSpeed22 is offline
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His attitude might wear on some people, but I don't think too many people are going to take this seriously.
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