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  #181  
Old 12-11-2013, 10:55 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
That's from mid-season 2011, before he spent anything but a September in the league...
Correct, and he was viewed as a top prospect. After he hit 25 homers in 2012, that positive outlook continued. Hence your statement, "The White Sox seemed to pretty much be the only ones who thought Viciedo was going to be something" is untrue.
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  #182  
Old 12-11-2013, 10:56 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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OK fine, maybe that's not the best term. How about "outlier"?

Only the rarest players are consistent throughout a season, most players have streaks and slumps. I could also say he was hitting under .240 from June 4th to July 7th, which is between his two periods of injury.

The issue is the implication that somehow he "turned a corner" in July. IMO, the real Viciedo is somewhere between his pre-break numbers and post break numbers.
The real Viciedo is the guy that for two years put up a miserable obp around .300 while being a terrible defender and station to station runner. He's probably amongst the worst players in baseball, and is most certainly among the handful of worst regulars in baseball.
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  #183  
Old 12-11-2013, 10:58 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Correct, and he was viewed as a top prospect. After he hit 25 homers in 2012, that positive outlook continued. Hence your statement, "The White Sox seemed to pretty much be the only ones who thought Viciedo was going to be something" is untrue.
He had a .300 obp in 2012 and his ability to see pitches was inept at best. Most every scout agreed that he either wasn't going to get it, or needed to change his approach drastically. ONLY here did we look at the 25 homers and say OH LOOK POTENTIAL. That's not what potential is.

Edit: and once again, that's from mid-season 2011. He wasn't in the league. He had only played in the majors September 2010, which is what this is based on. That is not relevant to the statement I made.
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  #184  
Old 12-11-2013, 11:00 AM
cws05champ cws05champ is offline
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Hindsight's a funny thing. It's one thing if it's a surprise to everyone. But that's not the case here. The White Sox seemed to pretty much be the only ones who thought Viciedo was going to be something. So they really couldn't have shipped him out for anything valuable (especially since he also made money).
I highly doubt that....a 23 yr old that hit 25 HR, 78 RBI has value in the market. Yes he is below average defensively, but considering how much power is valued today there's no doubt that the White Sox weren't the only team that thought he would be a decent option.
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  #185  
Old 12-11-2013, 11:03 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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I highly doubt that....a 23 yr old that hit 25 HR, 78 RBI has value in the market. Yes he is below average defensively, but considering how much power is valued today there's no doubt that the White Sox weren't the only team that thought he would be a decent option.
This is exactly the problem with counting stats. 25 homers and 78 RBIs! Forget that he was overmatched at the plate in 70+ percent of his at bats. HOMERS!

He had an OPS of what, like .740? He was below average at the plate, even without considering his lack of all other baseball skills.

Josh Fields hit homers too. Let's bring him back.

I wonder what LTP is doing.
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  #186  
Old 12-11-2013, 11:05 AM
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OK fine, maybe that's not the best term. How about "outlier"?
Much better
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  #187  
Old 12-11-2013, 11:05 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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I am not a Tank guy anymore. Very few guys succeed in the big leagues as low OBP guys.
While I am not high on Dayan either, I thought he looked a little more comfortable at the plate and he did take more pitches than in 2012. Also, most 24 year olds do not have 1000+ major league at bats. People forget that he's still a young player.

The new batting coach seems to value patience at the plate, maybe he'll be able to get through to him.
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  #188  
Old 12-11-2013, 11:08 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
While I am not high on Dayan either, I thought he looked a little more comfortable at the plate and he did take more pitches than in 2012. Also, most 24 year olds do not have 1000+ major league at bats. People forget that he's still a young player.

The new batting coach seems to value patience at the plate, maybe he'll be able to get through to him.
He has zero pitch recognition ability. Whatever they have to do with him, it'll involve breaking down his approach from square one. He's played a lot of baseball already for something like that. It's a long shot.
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  #189  
Old 12-11-2013, 11:10 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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He had a .300 obp in 2012 and his ability to see pitches was inept at best. Most every scout agreed that he either wasn't going to get it, or needed to change his approach drastically. ONLY here did we look at the 25 homers and say OH LOOK POTENTIAL. That's not what potential is.

Edit: and once again, that's from mid-season 2011. He wasn't in the league. He had only played in the majors September 2010, which is what this is based on. That is not relevant to the statement I made.
It is very relevant as professional scouts exercise patience with prospects, something that the typical fan does not have. A prospect that excels in the minors and then has some success in the majors does not fall off the radar. This is what scouts saw in 2012.

You are off base in your assessment of how Viciedo was viewed in 2012.
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  #190  
Old 12-11-2013, 11:14 AM
cws05champ cws05champ is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
This is exactly the problem with counting stats. 25 homers and 78 RBIs! Forget that he was overmatched at the plate in 70+ percent of his at bats. HOMERS!

He had an OPS of what, like .740? He was below average at the plate, even without considering his lack of all other baseball skills.

Josh Fields hit homers too. Let's bring him back.

I wonder what LTP is doing.
That's not what we are arguing here....you said that the White Sox were the only ones that thought Viciedo would become anything. Even after a season in which he hit 25 HR. I just don't think that is true at all. Now if you want to say that you thought this to be true is one thing, but to say that no one else in the league thought that Viciedo had any future prospects after 2012 is bollocks.

Look at the market for Trumbo who hit 34 HR with a .747 OPS last year, and an OBP under .300. Whether you like it or not there is some value there.
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  #191  
Old 12-11-2013, 11:20 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Josh Fields hit homers too. Let's bring him back.

I wonder what LTP is doing.
Fields and Viciedo are somewhat similar, but Borchard does not compare.
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  #192  
Old 12-11-2013, 11:21 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post

You are off base in your assessment of how Viciedo was viewed in 2012.
No, most analysis of him and his approach mirrored my sentiments. Keith Law was especially scathing.

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Originally Posted by cws05champ View Post
That's not what we are arguing here....you said that the White Sox were the only ones that thought Viciedo would become anything. Even after a season in which he hit 25 HR. I just don't think that is true at all. Now if you want to say that you thought this to be true is one thing, but to say that no one else in the league thought that Viciedo had any future prospects after 2012 is bollocks.

Look at the market for Trumbo who hit 34 HR with a .747 OPS last year, and an OBP under .300. Whether you like it or not there is some value there.
You can't judge potential off of a singular statistic. Viciedo was consistently overmatched at the plate. Those 25 homers were a very small portion of his at bats. If a guy has zero chance in 350+ at bats out of 500 or so, you can't seriously think a professional scout is going to point at 25 singular instances and say "hey, this guy's gonna be something". That's not the way it works.
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  #193  
Old 12-11-2013, 11:28 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
You can't judge potential off of a singular statistic. Viciedo was consistently overmatched at the plate. Those 25 homers were a very small portion of his at bats. If a guy has zero chance in 350+ at bats out of 500 or so, you can't seriously think a professional scout is going to point at 25 singular instances and say "hey, this guy's gonna be something". That's not the way it works.
Except that people are providing evidence to the contrary, you can pretend that "no one but the Sox saw any potential in Viciedo" all you want, but it's basically been disproven at this point in this thread.
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  #194  
Old 12-11-2013, 11:31 AM
cws05champ cws05champ is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
No, most analysis of him and his approach mirrored my sentiments. Keith Law was especially scathing.



You can't judge potential off of a singular statistic. Viciedo was consistently overmatched at the plate. Those 25 homers were a very small portion of his at bats. If a guy has zero chance in 350+ at bats out of 500 or so, you can't seriously think a professional scout is going to point at 25 singular instances and say "hey, this guy's gonna be something". That's not the way it works.
So are everyone's HR's???

And yes, I believe that after 2012 there were scouts that thought he would be a useful piece....not a great/superstar player, but a useful power bat that was young and had potential to get better.
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  #195  
Old 12-11-2013, 11:35 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Except that people are providing evidence to the contrary, you can pretend that "no one but the Sox saw any potential in Viciedo" all you want, but it's basically been disproven at this point in this thread.
Saying "he hit homers" isn't disproving anything. It's reinforcing that they don't know what they're talking about.
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