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  #226  
Old 12-09-2013, 12:15 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
in fairness, dunn's never had a two-year run as good as pk's 2010-2011 run
2004-2005
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #227  
Old 12-09-2013, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
2004-2005
10-11 Konerko: .306/.391/.551, 150 OPS+, 55 2B, 70 HR, 216 RBI, 158 R, 149 BB, 199 K, 7.7 WAR, .315 BABIP, 799 Outs Created

04-05 Dunn: .257/.388/.554, 144 OPS+, 69 2B, 86 HR, 203 RBI, 212 R, 222 BB, 363 K, 7.5 WAR, .300 BABIP, 845 Outs Created

Eh, I guess it is neck and neck
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  #228  
Old 12-09-2013, 05:36 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
10-11 Konerko: .306/.391/.551, 150 OPS+, 55 2B, 70 HR, 216 RBI, 158 R, 149 BB, 199 K, 7.7 WAR, .315 BABIP, 799 Outs Created

04-05 Dunn: .257/.388/.554, 144 OPS+, 69 2B, 86 HR, 203 RBI, 212 R, 222 BB, 363 K, 7.5 WAR, .300 BABIP, 845 Outs Created

Eh, I guess it is neck and neck
Dunn's numbers obviously padded by getting pitched around in the middle of crap lineups playing meaningless games in the NL central
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  #229  
Old 12-09-2013, 06:04 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Deadguy View Post
Konerko would have gotten nothing on the free agent market since no team would have been dumb enough to sign him.
I disagree with your speculation and don't believe it is grounded in reality. I don't think signing Konerko was a dumb move.

I believe that if Dunn's contract had expired at the end of the 2013 season, I would expect Konerko to have a better chance of signing a major league contract for 2014 than Dunn. Of course, these sort of statements are impossible to prove.
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  #230  
Old 12-09-2013, 06:17 PM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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Konerko would have gotten nothing on the free agent market since no team would have been dumb enough to sign him.
Baseless speculation. I'd like to see you try to prove that.

It is kind of amusing to me that we have people asserting that Dunn has been a better hitter than Konerko his whole career. That argument doesn't matter in the big picture, but I think it does show that hits, of all statistics, are undervalued in today's game.

On average, Konerko has gotten about 30 more hits per season than Dunn, and he's done that while striking out about 100 times less per year. For me, that means he's a better hitter.

There are certain measures by which Dunn has had a better career than Konerko, but I wouldn't say that's true overall. The fact that people believe that is evidence that walks are valued more than hits in modern baseball. That's a part of the FOBB philosophy that I disagree with. I'll take a hit over a walk.

Ask yourself, "With two outs in the bottom of the ninth and the winning run on second, who do I want at the plate? Konerko in his prime? Or Dunn in his prime?" For me, it's not even a question. Against a good pitcher, with the game on the line, I'll take Konerko every day over Dunn. He's just more likely to get a base hit.

That doesn't mean that Dunn doesn't have value. He does. He hits a lot of home runs. Will Dunn produce more than Konerko in 2014? Almost certainly. He produced more than Konerko last year. That said, I wouldn't be stunned if Konerko is a better value for the money in 2014.
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  #231  
Old 12-09-2013, 06:35 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Baseless speculation. I'd like to see you try to prove that.

It is kind of amusing to me that we have people asserting that Dunn has been a better hitter than Konerko his whole career. That argument doesn't matter in the big picture, but I think it does show that hits, of all statistics, are undervalued in today's game.

On average, Konerko has gotten about 30 more hits per season than Dunn, and he's done that while striking out about 100 times less per year. For me, that means he's a better hitter.

There are certain measures by which Dunn has had a better career than Konerko, but I wouldn't say that's true overall. The fact that people believe that is evidence that walks are valued more than hits in modern baseball. That's a part of the FOBB philosophy that I disagree with. I'll take a hit over a walk.

Ask yourself, "With two outs in the bottom of the ninth and the winning run on second, who do I want at the plate? Konerko in his prime? Or Dunn in his prime?" For me, it's not even a question. Against a good pitcher, with the game on the line, I'll take Konerko every day over Dunn. He's just more likely to get a base hit.

That doesn't mean that Dunn doesn't have value. He does. He hits a lot of home runs. Will Dunn produce more than Konerko in 2014? Almost certainly. He produced more than Konerko last year. That said, I wouldn't be stunned if Konerko is a better value for the money in 2014.
Dunn has also averaged 43 more walks, 10 more XBH's and and 8 more HR's.
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  #232  
Old 12-10-2013, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
Dunn has also averaged 43 more walks, 10 more XBH's and and 8 more HR's.
Yet his career OBP is only 10 points higher than Konerko's. And his career slugging is only 4 points higher. So, Konerko gives you almost the same OBP and slugging without the absurd strikeout totals that bog down an offense.

When I was in Little League, they always told the worst kid on the team that a walk is as good as a hit. I've never believed that to be true. That's just what you tell a 9-year-old who can't hit worth a ****. Everyone knows it's better to get a base hit than it is to walk.

I think it's kinda silly that people would sneer at Konerko's career and declare Dunn's to be superior. It depends on what stats you value, and even then, stats don't take the eye test into account. Even to this day, I would rather have a declining Konerko at the plate with a man at third and one out than Dunn.

Hell, Konerko hit .319 with RISP last year. He could still help the Sox in 2014.
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  #233  
Old 12-10-2013, 02:43 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Yet his career OBP is only 10 points higher than Konerko's. And his career slugging is only 4 points higher. So, Konerko gives you almost the same OBP and slugging without the absurd strikeout totals that bog down an offense.

When I was in Little League, they always told the worst kid on the team that a walk is as good as a hit. I've never believed that to be true. That's just what you tell a 9-year-old who can't hit worth a ****. Everyone knows it's better to get a base hit than it is to walk.

I think it's kinda silly that people would sneer at Konerko's career and declare Dunn's to be superior. It depends on what stats you value, and even then, stats don't take the eye test into account. Even to this day, I would rather have a declining Konerko at the plate with a man at third and one out than Dunn.

Hell, Konerko hit .319 with RISP last year. He could still help the Sox in 2014.

This seems obvious. Hitting, ultimately, is about hitting. Walking often comes on a pitcher's terms. Teams try to provide lineup protection for their best hitters so they will see more good pitches and walk less. If you aren't hitting when you're not walking, you're not hitting.

It is fashionable today to consider batting averages meaningless, but unless your offensive role is limited to getting on base, if you're hitting .220 (something Adam Dunn has never managed to do with the White Sox), your on-base percentage is irrelevant and your OPS doesn't reflect your hitting.

I don't see how anyone can favorably compare Dunn's career to Konerko's. I didn't understand how anyone could do that the day the White Sox signed him, and the comparison has only become more absurd over the last three seasons.
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  #234  
Old 12-10-2013, 09:15 AM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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This seems obvious. Hitting, ultimately, is about hitting. Walking often comes on a pitcher's terms. Teams try to provide lineup protection for their best hitters so they will see more good pitches and walk less. If you aren't hitting when you're not walking, you're not hitting.

It is fashionable today to consider batting averages meaningless, but unless your offensive role is limited to getting on base, if you're hitting .220 (something Adam Dunn has never managed to do with the White Sox), your on-base percentage is irrelevant and your OPS doesn't reflect your hitting.

I don't see how anyone can favorably compare Dunn's career to Konerko's. I didn't understand how anyone could do that the day the White Sox signed him, and the comparison has only become more absurd over the last three seasons.
Probably because, aside from BA and RBI, all his numbers are superior and he's played 4 less years.

I'm not sneering at PK's numbers. He's had a great career. I also call it like I see it. There's a small group of posters here that like to pretend Dunn hasn't also had a great career.
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  #235  
Old 12-10-2013, 09:22 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
Probably because, aside from BA and RBI, all his numbers are superior and he's played 4 less years.

I'm not sneering at PK's numbers. He's had a great career. I also call it like I see it. There's a small group of posters here that like to pretend Dunn hasn't also had a great career.
How do you define great career?

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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
I don't see how anyone can favorably compare Dunn's career to Konerko's. I didn't understand how anyone could do that the day the White Sox signed him, and the comparison has only become more absurd over the last three seasons.
That should be stating the obvious, but apparently not. Dunn up there with all time greats like Dave Kingman and Rob Deer.
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  #236  
Old 12-10-2013, 10:03 AM
soltrain21 soltrain21 is offline
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This is 100 percent setting up for Paulie to take over as manager next year after Robin doesn't resign.
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  #237  
Old 12-10-2013, 10:05 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
Dunn up there with all time greats like Dave Kingman and Rob Deer.
No.

Dunn is well beyond those two in terms of hitting. Career numbers:

Dunn: .238 BA, .366 OBP, .861 OPS, 124 OPS+, 349 oWAR
Kingman: .236 BA, .302 OBP, .780 OPS, 115 OPS+, 237 oWAR
Deer: .220 BA, .324 OBP, .766 OPS, 109 OPS+, 148 oWAR
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  #238  
Old 12-10-2013, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
Probably because, aside from BA and RBI, all his numbers are superior and he's played 4 less years.

I'm not sneering at PK's numbers. He's had a great career. I also call it like I see it. There's a small group of posters here that like to pretend Dunn hasn't also had a great career.
But you have to understand all his good years were before he joined the Sox. His three years here have been a disappointment to me. Unlike other Dunn critics, I was fine with the signing when it happened. I've been proven wrong.

And, yes, I do know that Dunn was the most productive hitter for the Sox last season. For me, that says more about the rest of the lineup than it says about Dunn. He was the most productive hitter for the worst Sox offense and worst Sox team in my lifetime. Damning with faint praise.
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  #239  
Old 12-10-2013, 01:22 PM
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But you have to understand all his good years were before he joined the Sox. His three years here have been a disappointment to me. Unlike other Dunn critics, I was fine with the signing when it happened. I've been proven wrong.

And, yes, I do know that Dunn was the most productive hitter for the Sox last season. For me, that says more about the rest of the lineup than it says about Dunn. He was the most productive hitter for the worst Sox offense and worst Sox team in my lifetime. Damning with faint praise.
Dunn's White Sox stat line-
.197 .317 .405 .722


Last year Marco Scutaro had a higher OPS than that.

We really shouldn't be comparing a solid defensive 1Bman's career to a DH/horrible OFer.

Last edited by balke; 12-10-2013 at 01:30 PM.
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  #240  
Old 12-11-2013, 09:42 AM
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Just want to say that as we add more and more youth I actually like the PK signing more. This team is going to need a veteran or two who can show the young kids how to prepare for playing in the majors. PK has always been a steady hand and is well known for his preparation and consistency. I think having that presence in the clubhouse will be a good thing.
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