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  #46  
Old 10-31-2013, 09:30 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by DrCrawdad View Post
I can't remember the guy's name, but the Sox hired away the Jays Latin America scout. The player this scout has the Sox go after turns to crap is not very encouraging to me, scary actually. Regardless of what you think of Santos, it is at the least discouraging that the very first move made on the basis of this new Latin scout turns out so poorly. On top of it, this was a player from this scouts previous employer. You'd think the scout would have hit a HR.
Latin American scouts actually scout players in Latin America, not Latin American players already playing within MLB organizations.
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  #47  
Old 10-31-2013, 11:23 AM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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If Ellsbury were signed to a five year deal he would only be 34 in his final year. I'm not really advocating signing him, but I would think there'd be just about as decent a chance he'd be a similar player in the fifth year as any other free agent signing. It's not like there are a lot of free agents around aged 29 or younger. I can't see signing him for 15 million a year regardless, though. I'd imagine he would go around 10-12 million a year.
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  #48  
Old 10-31-2013, 11:32 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
The Jays have a lot of high end failed pitching prospects that probably have Don Cooper frothing at the mouth. Kyle Drabek and Ricky Romero, anyone?

Seriously, we should get those guys. I really think Coop can fix 'em.
He didn't fix Francisco Liriano. Someone else did.
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  #49  
Old 10-31-2013, 11:33 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Moses_Scurry View Post
I was referring to how the trade turned out. At the time it may have looked bad (or good if you thought Molina would be a stud), but as it turned out it was exactly nothing for nothing and definitely not KW's worst trade.
That is almost irrelevant, though - a trade should not really be judged in hindsight, but instead should be judged based on what could have been gotten in terms of value at the time. Otherwise, every time a solid veteran is traded for a not-so-hot prospect who turns out years later to be great would be a "horrible" trade.
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  #50  
Old 10-31-2013, 11:41 AM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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KW sold high on a converted SS. He had Reed ready. Molina was a legit prospect. It was a good, logical trade. Honestly, who cares? Molina looks like a bust and Santos has thrown 41 innings over the last 2 years.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #51  
Old 10-31-2013, 11:43 AM
Moses_Scurry Moses_Scurry is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
That is almost irrelevant, though - a trade should not really be judged in hindsight, but instead should be judged based on what could have been gotten in terms of value at the time. Otherwise, every time a solid veteran is traded for a not-so-hot prospect who turns out years later to be great would be a "horrible" trade.
But the team is and has been no better or worse off since the trade, unless you think they could have gotten something better for Santos.

I don't think it was very good trade mainly because of what you said here. But to put it up as his worst trade of his tenure when you've got trades like the Todd Richie or Billy Koch trades that actually hurt the team because the guy they got sucked on the ML roster or hurt the team because the guy they ended up trading away like Gio ended up being really good doesn't work in my opinion.

Thinking about it, the Foulke, Koch trade was pretty awful because Koch sucked and Foulke was awesome after the trade. Getting Cotts makes up for it though for his 2005 alone. I still put the Swisher trade combos as the worst KW's time as GM.
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  #52  
Old 10-31-2013, 12:17 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Moses_Scurry View Post
But the team is and has been no better or worse off since the trade, unless you think they could have gotten something better for Santos.

I don't think it was very good trade mainly because of what you said here. But to put it up as his worst trade of his tenure when you've got trades like the Todd Richie or Billy Koch trades that actually hurt the team because the guy they got sucked on the ML roster or hurt the team because the guy they ended up trading away like Gio ended up being really good doesn't work in my opinion.

Thinking about it, the Foulke, Koch trade was pretty awful because Koch sucked and Foulke was awesome after the trade. Getting Cotts makes up for it though for his 2005 alone. I still put the Swisher trade combos as the worst KW's time as GM.
I am saying he could have gotten more for Santos, but what do I know?

It's not the worst trade by a longshot, but it's up with the rest.
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  #53  
Old 10-31-2013, 12:33 PM
Moses_Scurry Moses_Scurry is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
I am saying he could have gotten more for Santos, but what do I know?

It's not the worst trade by a longshot, but it's up with the rest.
I think the best they could have gotten was a different untested minor leaguer. Maybe he would have amounted to something better than Molina. Who knows?
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  #54  
Old 10-31-2013, 12:35 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Moses_Scurry View Post
I think the best they could have gotten was a different untested minor leaguer. Maybe he would have amounted to something better than Molina. Who knows?
Molina was a crapshoot, a former high prospect that stalled. It was a risk. Yeah, it could have turned out to be worth it, but ultimately Santos' value was probably worth a better prospect in return.

I don't think it was his worst deal though, and far from it.
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  #55  
Old 10-31-2013, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
KW sold high on a converted SS. He had Reed ready. Molina was a legit prospect. It was a good, logical trade. Honestly, who cares? Molina looks like a bust and Santos has thrown 41 innings over the last 2 years.
Seriously. Of all the things to lament, this isn't one.

The trade hasn't helped either team. There's no point in revisiting it.
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  #56  
Old 10-31-2013, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
I am saying he could have gotten more for Santos, but what do I know?

It's not the worst trade by a longshot, but it's up with the rest.
I don't think you're right about Santos. Fans and baseball analysts were looking at his stuff and how little wear he had on his arm, only having pitched professionally for one season and about 50 innings before he made it to the Sox bullpen at the age of 26. I think the White Sox and other teams considered him a bit fragile without the strength to make it through a season. In two seasons with the Sox, he had struggles maintaining his stuff late in the season, but he had done enough to that point to impress many.

I don't know that I was surprised that he was traded, but I don't believe I was surprised that the White Sox didn't get more for him. And, really, he has pitched only a little over 30 seasons for the Blue Jays since they acquired him. Maybe his minor league experience in the Blue Jays system is what he needed to be a major league reliever. Maybe the White Sox brought him up too early, not because he couldn't get major league hitters out, but because he wasn't up to the rigors of what it means to be a go-to reliever in a major league bullpen. He turned 30 while pitching in the minors last season, and his age might limit his major league ceiling, regardless of the mileage on his arm. It's hard to tell because relievers who are strong after 30 generally have learned things from a background of pitching experience that Santos will never have.

The Blue Jays appear to have gotten the better of this trade at the moment (unlike the Sirotka-Wells deal about a decade ago), but I think both teams were trading for pitchers they believed could have better futures.
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  #57  
Old 10-31-2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
I don't think you're right about Santos. Fans and baseball analysts were looking at his stuff and how little wear he had on his arm, only having pitched professionally for one season and about 50 innings before he made it to the Sox bullpen at the age of 26. I think the White Sox and other teams considered him a bit fragile without the strength to make it through a season. In two seasons with the Sox, he had struggles maintaining his stuff late in the season, but he had done enough to that point to impress many.

I don't know that I was surprised that he was traded, but I don't believe I was surprised that the White Sox didn't get more for him. And, really, he has pitched only a little over 30 seasons for the Blue Jays since they acquired him. Maybe his minor league experience in the Blue Jays system is what he needed to be a major league reliever. Maybe the White Sox brought him up too early, not because he couldn't get major league hitters out, but because he wasn't up to the rigors of what it means to be a go-to reliever in a major league bullpen. He turned 30 while pitching in the minors last season, and his age might limit his major league ceiling, regardless of the mileage on his arm. It's hard to tell because relievers who are strong after 30 generally have learned things from a background of pitching experience that Santos will never have.

The Blue Jays appear to have gotten the better of this trade at the moment (unlike the Sirotka-Wells deal about a decade ago), but I think both teams were trading for pitchers they believed could have better futures.
Eh, I lost interest to the point where I don't care if I'm wrong. Funny how that can happen!
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  #58  
Old 10-31-2013, 01:55 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
If Ellsbury were signed to a five year deal he would only be 34 in his final year. I'm not really advocating signing him, but I would think there'd be just about as decent a chance he'd be a similar player in the fifth year as any other free agent signing. It's not like there are a lot of free agents around aged 29 or younger. I can't see signing him for 15 million a year regardless, though. I'd imagine he would go around 10-12 million a year.
Except that it's already been speculated he will get that much. Ken Rosenthal a week or 2 ago stated he thinks Ellsbury could get $20 million a year. Seattle is reportedly very high on him and Rosenthal said he thinks they are going to sign him to a 6-7 year deal at $21 million per. Regardless if that happens or not, the FA market is slim and a player like Ellsbury is going to get top $. And he played hurt during the Series with a hand/wrist injury that actually happened before his foot problem in September: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/r...-injury-103113

He just turned 30, he's had injury issues the last couple years, this is not the kind of player I want the Sox making an investment in at this time.
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  #59  
Old 10-31-2013, 02:29 PM
SoxSpeed22 SoxSpeed22 is offline
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I guess the stupid teams never learn (referring to the Mariners paying that much for Ellsbury).
I would like to improve center field, but not at that cost.
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  #60  
Old 10-31-2013, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Santos was a viable closer. We got nothing for him. He got hurt for Toronto - garbage he wasn't. Neither was Quentin nor Jackson, 2 other players Williams gave away.
Have to take the good with the bad. Toronto probably doesn't think Daniel Webb and Myles Jaye for Jason Frasor looks too good right now, either.
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