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  #286  
Old 10-24-2013, 11:19 AM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
This took me 8 minutes of work on baseball reference to prove wrong.

In games Dunn did not play or did not start, the Sox were 6-11.

These were game numbers 7, 32, 35, 51, 85, 91, 94, 112, 135, 138, 141, 148, 154, 155, 156, 158, 162.

Do research first, I say!
Yes, but the lineup isn't solely responsible for wins and losses. How about a look at offensive production in the games he didn't start?
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  #287  
Old 10-24-2013, 11:30 AM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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What about getting back to Abreu though? The more I have a chance to absorb the signing the more I like it.

It almost seems like the move is being downplayed in the media for some reason. For example, I keep reading that Abreu put up similar numbers to Cespedes in the Cuban league when in fact Abreu's numbers absolutely blow his out of the water. Gonzalez had a piece where he cites Abreu's 2010-11 numbers and says they were "close to Cespedes". Uh, maybe they were close in relation to some cosmic scale, but let's take a look:

Cespedes: .333/.424/.667
Abreu: .453/.597/.986

Abreu's numbers close to Cespedes?!? That's like saying Frank Thomas's '93 numbers were close to Ellis Burks. The difference between a .453 average and .333 is the same as the difference between a .302 average and a .222 average. And it's not like that season was out of the ordinary, Abreu consistently put up significantly better numbers, and he's a year younger!

Personally, I think this going to go down as the best signing in Sox history and easily the best signing of this offseason.
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  #288  
Old 10-24-2013, 11:38 AM
Rocky Soprano Rocky Soprano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
This took me 8 minutes of work on baseball reference to prove wrong.

In games Dunn did not play or did not start, the Sox were 6-11.

These were game numbers 7, 32, 35, 51, 85, 91, 94, 112, 135, 138, 141, 148, 154, 155, 156, 158, 162.

Do research first, I say!
I understand why people dislike Dunn, but the post above is exactly why people should think twice before opening their mouth. Like it or not, as far as production goes, Dunn is our best bat. Without Dunn, the Sox would have even been worse - scary thought! Hopefully Dunn starts off the year hot and the Sox find someone that is willing to take him for the rest of year.
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  #289  
Old 10-24-2013, 11:41 AM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by Rocky Soprano View Post
I understand why people dislike Dunn, but the post above is exactly why people should think twice before opening their mouth. Like it or not, as far as production goes, Dunn is our best bat. Without Dunn, the Sox would have even been worse - scary thought! Hopefully Dunn starts off the year hot and the Sox find someone that is willing to take him for the rest of year.
Garcia and Abreu are our best bats.

Look at the course of Dunn's tenure with the Sox, if you can't see the negative impact by now I think you're in denial. Trying to water it down by just looking at last year seems a bit disingenuous. Sure the Sox still would have stunk last year even if they had that 15 million back to spend on an actual good hitter, but that doesn't let Dunn off the hook for his effect on the team. Having a hitter like that in the middle of the lineup is going to effect the production of the entire lineup. Konerko falling off the cliff last year didn't help, but every player is going to get too old at some point.
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  #290  
Old 10-24-2013, 11:55 AM
Rocky Soprano Rocky Soprano is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
Garcia and Abreu are our best bats.

Look at the course of Dunn's tenure with the Sox, if you can't see the negative impact by now I think you're in denial. Trying to water it down by just looking at last year seems a bit disingenuous. Sure the Sox still would have stunk last year even if they had that 15 million back to spend on an actual good hitter, but that doesn't let Dunn off the hook for his effect on the team. Having a hitter like that in the middle of the lineup is going to effect the production of the entire lineup. Konerko falling off the cliff last year didn't help, but every player is going to get too old at some point.
Dunn was the best bat last year, I guess I needed to clarify that.
I am not a fan of Dunn and I clearly said I understand why people dislike him. The fact is the Sox would not have been a better team without Dunn last year, offensively speaking. It's funny how Konerko gets a pass for his production and some actually want to see him back next season. Blame it on injuries or his age but his bat is worse than Dunn's. Dunn should not be a middle of the lineup hitter, unfortunately the Sox did not have better options and Venture kept him there.
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  #291  
Old 10-24-2013, 11:56 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
Look at the course of Dunn's tenure with the Sox, if you can't see the negative impact by now I think you're in denial.
No question, but he was still the most productive hitter last year. That is not saying much, because the whole lineup stunk. What I mean is a better player than Dunn would have done better, but in that lineup, Dunn was the most productive player.
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  #292  
Old 10-24-2013, 12:02 PM
Rocky Soprano Rocky Soprano is offline
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No question, but he was still the most productive hitter last year. That is not saying much, because the whole lineup stunk. What I mean is a better player than Dunn would have done better, but in that lineup, Dunn was the most productive player.
Exactly!
Thus if you take last years most productive player out, the team would NOT have been better, they would have been ever worse!
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  #293  
Old 10-24-2013, 12:16 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rocky Soprano View Post
Exactly!
Thus if you take last years most productive player out, the team would NOT have been better, they would have been ever worse!
Well, it depends on who replaced him - but you can't just pull a player out of thin air - he could have been replaced by 1/2 the MLB hitters, and it would all be speculation with trades and FA signings.

If the argument is he should have been benched, then yeah, the team would have been worse off without him.
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  #294  
Old 10-24-2013, 01:45 PM
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XplodingScorbord XplodingScorbord is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
What about getting back to Abreu though? The more I have a chance to absorb the signing the more I like it.
Well, good try attempting to get this thread back on topic, but we'd all rather have our 27th thread talking about how awful Adam Dunn is.
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  #295  
Old 10-24-2013, 01:47 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by XplodingScorbord View Post
Well, good try attempting to get this thread back on topic, but we'd all rather have our 27th thread talking about how awful Adam Dunn is.
Ha!

Thread: Sox sign [batter X (almost no matter how bad this person is)]

Responses: He couldn't be worse than Adam Dunn!
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  #296  
Old 10-24-2013, 01:50 PM
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XplodingScorbord XplodingScorbord is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Ha!

Thread: Sox sign [batter X (almost no matter how bad this person is)]

Responses: He couldn't be worse than Adam Dunn!
It's like you can see the future! Now, Saturday's Powerball numbers, please.
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  #297  
Old 10-24-2013, 01:59 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
This took me 8 minutes of work on baseball reference to prove wrong.

In games Dunn did not play or did not start, the Sox were 6-11.

These were game numbers 7, 32, 35, 51, 85, 91, 94, 112, 135, 138, 141, 148, 154, 155, 156, 158, 162.

Do research first, I say!
I don't know that the Sox would have won those six games if Dunn had been in the lineup, especially in the field. You don't need to do research if you have watched Adam Dunn play for the White Sox. He has hurt the team far more than he has helped it. If he had a one-year contract, he wouldn't have come back for a second year. If he had a tw0-year contract, he wouldn't have come back for a second year. If the Sox had an option to buy out the remainder of his contract for $2 million, he wouldn't be coming back next year.

Looking at his signing in isolation, and not considering for example whether Konerko would have re-signed with the Sox had Dunn (just as in the previous paragraph I didn't consider whether the possibility of being without a contract would have inspired him to be a decent major league hitter), I don't think anyone who has watched the Sox since Adam Dunn signed, except for momentarily brief flashes, has believed the Sox were better off because they signed Adam Dunn.
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  #298  
Old 10-24-2013, 02:04 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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I don't think anyone who has watched the Sox since Adam Dunn signed, except for momentarily brief flashes, has believed the Sox were better off because they signed Adam Dunn.
I agreed to this pretty recently in the thread, saying that even though Dunn was arguably their most productive hitter last year, half the league could have been netter in his spot.

People seem to be arguing two different things here.
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  #299  
Old 10-24-2013, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
Garcia and Abreu are our best bats.
We probably should hold off on claims regarding Abreu until we actually see him bat in the Majors. I like the signing, and I think he has a chance, but proclaiming him as one of our top two bats is a little premature.
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  #300  
Old 10-24-2013, 02:12 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by spawn View Post
We probably should hold off on claims regarding Abreu until we actually see him bat in the Majors. I like the signing, and I think he has a chance, but proclaiming him as one of our top two bats is a little premature.
Garcia, too, really.
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