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  #16  
Old 09-27-2013, 10:57 AM
Rocky Soprano Rocky Soprano is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I'm not going to quarrel with your post. I will say that as a sport the "action packed" nature of football is greatly exaggerated. There are enough "big plays" to sate the modern audience I suppose. If action and excitement are what you want, nothing tops Stanley Cup Playoff hockey. FWIW baseball is my favorite sport and American football is a very close second.
It's completely a matter of preference. I disagree that Stanley Cup Playoff hockey is tops. If the Hawks aren't playing I wouldn't watch a second. Yet, I will watch NBA and NFL playoffs even if my team is not in it because I find it exciting.

As for Selig goes, I don't like or hate him. I think he did some things very well but do hope that the next person brings in a new perspective.
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  #17  
Old 09-27-2013, 12:14 PM
captain54 captain54 is offline
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How do you explain a couple
You answered your own question.. a couple.. To make a blanket statement that the sport is irrelevant based on a couple of franchises is not very wise and logical..
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  #18  
Old 09-27-2013, 07:59 PM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
So what are the main knocks on Bud? Just that he had little regard for tradition by doing things like introducing the wildcard, expanding the postseason, etc.? I guess I'm showing my relative youth here, but I think all of that stuff has been positive for the game.

I think it's helpful to look at the problems facing Baseball right now, in some random order:

1. Parity. The same teams win over and over again. However, Bud has expanded the number of playoff spots and recently they've also fixed the draft system to be more equitable. Foreign free agents remain an area where the big market teams have an advantage.

2. Performance Enhancing Drugs. Yeah, baseball was asleep at the wheel about this for a while (at best), but A-Rod is about to go away for a long time. More notably, the other players caught along with A-Rod just immediately agreed to serve their time - a move away from the old system of joke appeals.

3. Declining Popularity. Baseball is arguably less popular now than it was in the previous few generations. It has lost a lot of ground to football as America's pasttime. The decline is especially notable in the African-American community, a problem people keep pointing out but that few people are doing anything about. Bud has attempted to counteract this by promoting baseball overseas, through the World Baseball Classic and such.

4. Florida. What is to be done here?

5. Antiquated TV model. MLB is going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the digital, online era. Fans increasingly want to watch their teams play on their computer, not their TV. It makes no sense that an A's fan in Las Vegas should be denied the chance to watch his team because A's fans hundreds of miles away from him are not attending games. But unless they elect a commissioner under the age of 30, this is probably not something that's going to change.
The reason Bud is a poor commissioner is because what he was before being commissioner: owner of the Milwaukee Brewers.

You can't tell me many of his decisions were beyond poor, from embracing (if not profiting from) the epic scale of doping under his watch culminating in the McGwire/Sosa farce, the worst period of labor relations work stoppages in baseball history, pushing marketing and the interests of the big market teams over the health of all franchises, and making a mockery of some of the most deeply held traditions of the game for a few bucks or a few more ratings points.

And yes, this may seem like sour grapes, but a former Brewers owner (who's daughter owned the team when he took office) attempted contraction of the Expos and Twins, the constant pushing of his pet project (World Baseball Classic) regardless of how it affects player health, and how the Astros got jobbed during the rescheduling of the Hurricane series to Milwaukee, and of course in their forced move to the AL that the team and fans never wanted can't be remotely called impartial.

Please, please, please MLB, never let an owner be commissioner again. For the good of the game, Bud should be replaced by a Giamatti-like independent voice as commissioner and not a tool of ownership, catering to his own interests and the more well-heeled ownership groups over the "best interests of baseball".
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  #19  
Old 09-27-2013, 08:11 PM
Mr. Jinx Mr. Jinx is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
The reason Bud is a poor commissioner is because what he was before being commissioner: owner of the Milwaukee Brewers.

You can't tell me many of his decisions were beyond poor, from embracing (if not profiting from) the epic scale of doping under his watch culminating in the McGwire/Sosa farce, the worst period of labor relations work stoppages in baseball history, pushing marketing and the interests of the big market teams over the health of all franchises, and making a mockery of some of the most deeply held traditions of the game for a few bucks or a few more ratings points.

And yes, this may seem like sour grapes, but a former Brewers owner (who's daughter owned the team when he took office) attempted contraction of the Expos and Twins, the constant pushing of his pet project (World Baseball Classic) regardless of how it affects player health, and how the Astros got jobbed during the rescheduling of the Hurricane series to Milwaukee, and of course in their forced move to the AL that the team and fans never wanted can't be remotely called impartial.

Please, please, please MLB, never let an owner be commissioner again. For the good of the game, Bud should be replaced by a Giamatti-like independent voice as commissioner and not a tool of ownership, catering to his own interests and the more well-heeled ownership groups over the "best interests of baseball".
Um, the players union was the group that was against legitimate drug testing. The WBC was a wild success internationally, which was the entire purpose. As for not caring about player health, plenty of players play in the winter leagues. How about their health? Can you provide any instance where a player played in the WBC and then has negatively affected because of it?

And Houston sucks. **** em.
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  #20  
Old 09-27-2013, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
You can't tell me many of his decisions were beyond poor, from embracing (if not profiting from) the epic scale of doping under his watch culminating in the McGwire/Sosa farce, the worst period of labor relations work stoppages in baseball history, pushing marketing and the interests of the big market teams over the health of all franchises, and making a mockery of some of the most deeply held traditions of the game for a few bucks or a few more ratings points.
Am I misunderstanding this line? Baseball hasn't had a work stoppage in almost 20 years, and this has been regarded as one of the most peaceful times in regards to labor relations in the sport. All of the other major sports have wrestled with the issue, but baseball has remained unscathed since '94. That's a testament to Selig, not a knock. It took losing the '94 Series, but perhaps, after so many strikes in the past, that was necessary to make sure it never happens again.
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  #21  
Old 09-28-2013, 12:36 AM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is online now
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Am I misunderstanding this line? Baseball hasn't had a work stoppage in almost 20 years, and this has been regarded as one of the most peaceful times in regards to labor relations in the sport. All of the other major sports have wrestled with the issue, but baseball has remained unscathed since '94. That's a testament to Selig, not a knock. It took losing the '94 Series, but perhaps, after so many strikes in the past, that was necessary to make sure it never happens again.
If you're going to consider the total of Selig's legacy though, you need to look at the major role he played in collusion (I'm not sure if it was his idea or Peter Ueberoth's) as an owner. It also needs to consider the fact that under his tenure as commissioner he saw the first and only World Series canceled. Ironically, all of the labor strife led to his second big strike in his tenure, the steroid scandal.

People like to point to the 20 years of labor peace but they ignore the role that Selig played in the acrimony before that and the fact that the sport that he reigned over is the only one that canceled a championship because of a labor dispute.

I think that Selig's legacy is much more complicated than either his contractors or boosters would care to admit.
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  #22  
Old 09-30-2013, 10:54 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
So what are the main knocks on Bud? Just that he had little regard for tradition by doing things like introducing the wildcard, expanding the postseason, etc.? I guess I'm showing my relative youth here, but I think all of that stuff has been positive for the game.

I think it's helpful to look at the problems facing Baseball right now, in some random order:

1. Parity. The same teams win over and over again. However, Bud has expanded the number of playoff spots and recently they've also fixed the draft system to be more equitable. Foreign free agents remain an area where the big market teams have an advantage.

2. Performance Enhancing Drugs. Yeah, baseball was asleep at the wheel about this for a while (at best), but A-Rod is about to go away for a long time. More notably, the other players caught along with A-Rod just immediately agreed to serve their time - a move away from the old system of joke appeals.

3. Declining Popularity. Baseball is arguably less popular now than it was in the previous few generations. It has lost a lot of ground to football as America's pasttime. The decline is especially notable in the African-American community, a problem people keep pointing out but that few people are doing anything about. Bud has attempted to counteract this by promoting baseball overseas, through the World Baseball Classic and such.

4. Florida. What is to be done here?

5. Antiquated TV model. MLB is going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the digital, online era. Fans increasingly want to watch their teams play on their computer, not their TV. It makes no sense that an A's fan in Las Vegas should be denied the chance to watch his team because A's fans hundreds of miles away from him are not attending games. But unless they elect a commissioner under the age of 30, this is probably not something that's going to change.
Good list.

One thing that has successfully happened under Selig's tenure is that major league baseball moved from a league where a ton of teams played in cookie cutter, multipurpose stadiums (many with astroturf) to a league where a vast majority of teams play in baseball-only parks. There are a few notable execptions, of course: Oakland, Tampa Bay, and Toronto.

Don't forget the successful launch of MLB Network and MLB.tv. I agree, though, that the league's blackout policy is ridiculous and that is something that MLB failed to address under Bud's watch.

One of Selig's failings is how he let his buddy Loria wreck the Montreal franchise and was then allowed to wreck the Marlins franchise.

Also, his "commission" to address the A's attempted move to San Jose was a complete joke. That commission has apparently been "studying" the matter for something like 4 years now. MLB didn't have the guts to make a decision one way or another and just tried to bury the issue.

My biggest complaint about MLB has been the continued hegemony of the Yankees and Red Sox. At least the league has attempted to fix things with the new amateur draft/international free agent rules.
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  #23  
Old 10-01-2013, 02:45 AM
ComiskeyBrewer ComiskeyBrewer is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
The reason Bud is a poor commissioner is because what he was before being commissioner: owner of the Milwaukee Brewers.

You can't tell me many of his decisions were beyond poor, from embracing (if not profiting from) the epic scale of doping under his watch culminating in the McGwire/Sosa farce, the worst period of labor relations work stoppages in baseball history, pushing marketing and the interests of the big market teams over the health of all franchises, and making a mockery of some of the most deeply held traditions of the game for a few bucks or a few more ratings points.

And yes, this may seem like sour grapes, but a former Brewers owner (who's daughter owned the team when he took office) attempted contraction of the Expos and Twins, the constant pushing of his pet project (World Baseball Classic) regardless of how it affects player health, and how the Astros got jobbed during the rescheduling of the Hurricane series to Milwaukee, and of course in their forced move to the AL that the team and fans never wanted can't be remotely called impartial.

Please, please, please MLB, never let an owner be commissioner again. For the good of the game, Bud should be replaced by a Giamatti-like independent voice as commissioner and not a tool of ownership, catering to his own interests and the more well-heeled ownership groups over the "best interests of baseball".
1. The players union had as much, if not more of a hand in the steroids problem in baseball. They prevented every attempt he made at creating drug testing in MLB. Selig instituted drug testing in the minors in the 90s because there was nothing the union could do to stop it.

2. From 1972-1990 there were 7 lockouts or strikes. From 1991-2013, there has been 1, and none in the past 18 years. Yes, the one under his watch was horrendous, but he has overseen the longest peace era since the Players Union was founded. Lockout/strikes have basically become a thing of the past. There's no way you can call what we are currently in the worst period of work stoppages ever. It's blatantly false.

3. The idea of contraction was brought about by a team owner, not Bud(and the owners voted for it 28-2).

4. If bud was for the interest of big market teams, he wouldn't have instituted a Luxury Tax. And the health of all major league teams are as healthy as they have been in a LONG time. In the past 5 years, you have had "small market" teams in Milwaukee, Oakland, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Minnesota and Baltimore make the playoffs. Both Milwaukee and Tampa have made it multiple times. The health of the game is great right now.

5. The WBC hasn't taken off here yet, but in places like Japan, Korea and the Caribbean it is wildly popular. If the US puts together a team that actually wins, it will start to take off.

6. What deeply held traditions has he ruined? Did Bud make up a fake position in order to generate more offense and sell more tickets? No, that was under Bowie Kuhn's watch. Is it because he added a wild card? The Wild Card is one of the best additions that MLB could make. It keeps multiple fan bases excited late into the year, and 9 WC teams have made the WS since it was instituted.

Yes, the Stros got jobbed twice. There is no real way around that. But all in all, i'd say Bud has been very successful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
If you're going to consider the total of Selig's legacy though, you need to look at the major role he played in collusion (I'm not sure if it was his idea or Peter Ueberoth's) as an owner. It also needs to consider the fact that under his tenure as commissioner he saw the first and only World Series canceled. Ironically, all of the labor strife led to his second big strike in his tenure, the steroid scandal.

People like to point to the 20 years of labor peace but they ignore the role that Selig played in the acrimony before that and the fact that the sport that he reigned over is the only one that canceled a championship because of a labor dispute.

I think that Selig's legacy is much more complicated than either his contractors or boosters would care to admit.
It's the middle ground where his legacy lies. Is he the worst commish in sports? Not by a long shot. Is he the best? Just as far from it as the previous question. His detractors like to focus on his role in the Strike, and the ASG(which wasn't really his fault. The managers played it poorly). His supporters will point to the advances baseball has made in the past 20 years(Wild Card additions, MLB network, Luxury tax and small market revivals) Bud is an easy target, but in the end i think he did a decent job.
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  #24  
Old 05-16-2014, 01:16 PM
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Selig announced the formation of a succession committee Thursday.

The committee will be chaired by Cardinals chairman and chief executive officer Bill DeWitt Jr. and will include six other owners: Dick Montfort of the Rockies, Dave Montgomery of the Phillies, Arte Moreno of the Angels, Bob Nutting of the Pirates, Jim Pohlad of the Twins and Jerry Reinsdorf of the White Sox.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/cws/...&vkey=news_cws
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  #25  
Old 05-16-2014, 02:33 PM
34 Inch Stick 34 Inch Stick is offline
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I used to ignorantly consider the commissioner of MLB to be a third party caretaker of the integrity of the game who tempered the interests of the owners, players and fans with some kind of ideal.

That really was what the job appeared to be to me as a younger person.
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  #26  
Old 05-16-2014, 02:42 PM
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Who will replace Bud?

With JR on the selection committee, I wouldn't be shocked at all if *** wait for it *** Kenny Williams is vetted. OK; commence laughing, mocking and name-calling. I'm not saying he'll get the job, but I bet his name is thrown out there.

Any other suggestions?
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  #27  
Old 05-16-2014, 03:38 PM
DeadMoney DeadMoney is offline
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Who will replace Bud?

With JR on the selection committee, I wouldn't be shocked at all if *** wait for it *** Kenny Williams is vetted. OK; commence laughing, mocking and name-calling. I'm not saying he'll get the job, but I bet his name is thrown out there.

Any other suggestions?
The list is so long with potential names, but my guess would be that the next commissioner comes from one of the following four:
Rob Manfred
Bob Bowman
Tim Brosnan
Stan Kasten

And, at some point or another in the process - I wouldn't be shocked to see that the committee is vetting/floating any of the following names out there (and there are some I probably missed):
George W. Bush
Rick Levin
George Bodenheimer
Dick Ebersol
Steve Greenberg
John Schuerholz
Ruben Amaro Jr.
Dave Dombrowski
Mark Shapiro
Joe Torre
Theo Epstein
Ken Williams

With all that said - and because this process is seemingly starting this late - I think Bud comes back at least one more season when none of the above guys can get 24 votes from owners (and the owners back Bud into a corner).
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  #28  
Old 05-17-2014, 04:27 PM
soxfanreggie soxfanreggie is offline
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Originally Posted by DeadMoney View Post
The list is so long with potential names, but my guess would be that the next commissioner comes from one of the following four:
Rob Manfred
Bob Bowman
Tim Brosnan
Stan Kasten

And, at some point or another in the process - I wouldn't be shocked to see that the committee is vetting/floating any of the following names out there (and there are some I probably missed):
George W. Bush
Rick Levin
George Bodenheimer
Dick Ebersol
Steve Greenberg
John Schuerholz
Ruben Amaro Jr.
Dave Dombrowski
Mark Shapiro
Joe Torre
Theo Epstein
Ken Williams

With all that said - and because this process is seemingly starting this late - I think Bud comes back at least one more season when none of the above guys can get 24 votes from owners (and the owners back Bud into a corner).
He's gone. The big question - will baseball seek someone who will just go for five years or will they go for another guy who will put in 20 years?
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  #29  
Old 05-23-2014, 07:15 PM
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Interesting NYT article where I picked up a couple of nuggets:
1. Bud wants to appoint Manfred; Reinsdorf is chief opponent as he argues that Bud has been insufficiently transparent as commish and he fears that Manfred won't be tough negotiator w/ players union
2. Reinsdorf has proposed elimination of single commissioner of MLB to be replaced by a triumvirate of owners, including himself
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