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  #76  
Old 09-30-2013, 09:52 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Citing crap like ERA and saves and what not is not going to sway me.
But, but, but Jim Johnson had a great year!
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  #77  
Old 09-30-2013, 09:57 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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If Quintana and Santiago are for real, they're getting big bucks in in arbitration in 2015 and beyond. With Danks and Sale already making a ton, that's gonna be a ton of flexibility gone just for four players. Yeah, they're the rotation, but it's not ideal considering the route you're talking about involves heavy investment of the bulk of our available resources for 21 other players. It just doesn't add up, unless we're spending between 150 and 200 million dollars.

In 2015 Danks and Sale will be making about 20M. Quintana and Santiago will still both be under Sox control in 2015 and at least 2016. Combined they wont get more than 10M in 2015. 30M for a starting 4 is not that much and leaves a ton of money for the rest. Remember also that 2016 is Danks last year under contract.
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  #78  
Old 09-30-2013, 09:59 PM
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I'm pretty sure he meant starting pitching.
The bullpen went from average to epic fail after they traded Crain and Thornton. I don't even want to look at the number of blown saves we had after those trades it has to be an insane percentage. For a while it seemed every second game they were losing late after getting the lead...
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  #79  
Old 09-30-2013, 10:31 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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The bullpen went from average to epic fail after they traded Crain and Thornton. I don't even want to look at the number of blown saves we had after those trades it has to be an insane percentage. For a while it seemed every second game they were losing late after getting the lead...
Well it sure wasn't from Thornton's absence. Crain maybe, but Thornton was brutal for the better part of the last 3 years. His time had come.
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  #80  
Old 09-30-2013, 10:50 PM
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Well it sure wasn't from Thornton's absence. Crain maybe, but Thornton was brutal for the better part of the last 3 years. His time had come.
Thornton still had uses and when he was removed from the equation along with Crain it pushed other less dependable players into those positions. There was nothing left at all when those two left.
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  #81  
Old 09-30-2013, 11:11 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
The bullpen went from average to epic fail after they traded Crain and Thornton. I don't even want to look at the number of blown saves we had after those trades it has to be an insane percentage. For a while it seemed every second game they were losing late after getting the lead...
The bullpen is a mystery that even the great Don Cooper has yet to master other than the 2005 season.

The implosions of the pen, even outside of the one or two fire sales during his time as pitching coach have been rather alarming. The pen starts very hot and flames out by the time July comes around.
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  #82  
Old 10-01-2013, 06:10 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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In 2015 Danks and Sale will be making about 20M. Quintana and Santiago will still both be under Sox control in 2015 and at least 2016. Combined they wont get more than 10M in 2015. 30M for a starting 4 is not that much and leaves a ton of money for the rest. Remember also that 2016 is Danks last year under contract.
It goes up every year. It's $30+ million, then $45 million, then more ridiculous. What 21 game changing players would we have under contract with most being only two year deals to account for this? Or is the plan to only compete in 2015?

You can't just go out and buy a team if you have limited resources. Even if you can afford it now (which realistically we couldn't anyway), you can't always in the future. And buying a team is counter to the only assets we have.
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  #83  
Old 10-01-2013, 07:29 AM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
The bullpen is a mystery that even the great Don Cooper has yet to master other than the 2005 season.

The implosions of the pen, even outside of the one or two fire sales during his time as pitching coach have been rather alarming. The pen starts very hot and flames out by the time July comes around.
I think this happens throughout baseball each year. Offense is typically down in the early months and the pitchers are seen as being "ahead" of the pitchers. I'd imagine this is even more the case with hard-throwing relievers.
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  #84  
Old 10-01-2013, 08:03 AM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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It goes up every year. It's $30+ million, then $45 million, then more ridiculous. What 21 game changing players would we have under contract with most being only two year deals to account for this? Or is the plan to only compete in 2015?

You can't just go out and buy a team if you have limited resources. Even if you can afford it now (which realistically we couldn't anyway), you can't always in the future. And buying a team is counter to the only assets we have.
I am not really sure what point you are making but money is not a problem currently. Future long term big money contracts could hamstring the team but that is not the case now.
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  #85  
Old 10-01-2013, 08:06 AM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Yes, I am aware that there are different formulas for WAR, I've looked at them and I personally prefer the one that B-R uses.

Citing crap like ERA and saves and what not is not going to sway me.
You may think ERA is crap , but ERA meant a hell of a lot in the AL this year. The 6 AL Playoff teams finished in the top 7 in ERA. In the NL Top 5 teams in ERA all made the playoffs.
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  #86  
Old 10-01-2013, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
It goes up every year. It's $30+ million, then $45 million, then more ridiculous. What 21 game changing players would we have under contract with most being only two year deals to account for this? Or is the plan to only compete in 2015?

You can't just go out and buy a team if you have limited resources. Even if you can afford it now (which realistically we couldn't anyway), you can't always in the future. And buying a team is counter to the only assets we have.
Just curious but why can't the team suddenly afford to spend now? The vast majority of their money remains untouched in the form of TV and radio contracts both of which are way up from a few years ago. This team should have no problem spending $100M this coming season if they choose to.
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  #87  
Old 10-01-2013, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by SCCWS View Post
You may think ERA is crap , but ERA meant a hell of a lot in the AL this year. The 6 AL Playoff teams finished in the top 7 in ERA. In the NL Top 5 teams in ERA all made the playoffs.
ERA isn't really that subjective, IMO. Most plays are cut and dried. How many "controversial runs" are scored each year where there's actual questions about whether a run should be earned or unearned.

Add in the fact that a pitcher can commit an error and allow a batter to reach first with two outs in a given inning, go on to walk the bases loaded, give up a grand slam, walk the bases loaded again and give up another grand slam and all 8 runs would be unearned and it seems to me that there's as ample a reason to say pitchers may not be getting credited with the earned runs they actually do give up too. It probably balances for the most part...
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  #88  
Old 10-01-2013, 10:32 AM
SoxSpeed22 SoxSpeed22 is online now
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I am ready to think that Quintana is a legit #2 starter. He was able to get out of jams much better and his strikeouts doubled from last year. He also had much better numbers in September. His secondary pitches can still use some polish and he might need something to get lefties out with more reliably.
As far as spending goes, I would like to use next season as an opportunity to improve scouting and coaching, just like Rick wants. If that takes away from some of the salary of the big team, that is acceptable. For too long, the organization focused on short-term instead of long-term. That can change now.
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  #89  
Old 10-01-2013, 03:44 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
I am not really sure what point you are making but money is not a problem currently. Future long term big money contracts could hamstring the team but that is not the case now.
The point was exactly that...we shouldn't be doling out deals to compete in 2015, it's counter to building a sustained winner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Just curious but why can't the team suddenly afford to spend now? The vast majority of their money remains untouched in the form of TV and radio contracts both of which are way up from a few years ago. This team should have no problem spending $100M this coming season if they choose to.
I'm not sure $100 million in new payroll would make this team a winner (or close really), and it's a huge gambit considering how few fans showed this year.
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  #90  
Old 10-01-2013, 06:30 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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The point was exactly that...we shouldn't be doling out deals to compete in 2015, it's counter to building a sustained winner.



I'm not sure $100 million in new payroll would make this team a winner (or close really), and it's a huge gambit considering how few fans showed this year.
Cleveland entered this season with a payroll of $80 Mil. So good salary management and good coaching could make $100 work.
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