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  #136  
Old 09-22-2013, 12:24 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
You bring up LaRussa's .500 record his first 2 months managing. Ventura's first 2 months were better. Tony's team lost 90 games the next season. He obviously should have then been fired, correct?
Seriously, there is no one on the planet that could get this roster to play .500 right now. Whether you love or hate Ventura's personality or managerial style, he is not the problem.
No- with a starting line up of Bruce Kimm, Mike Squires, Jim Morrison, Todd Cruz, Kevin Bell, Bob Molinaro, a rookie Harold Baines, Chet Lemon and Lamar Johnson- the fact that LaRussa could get 70 wins out of the wreckage was a testament to his future potential as a manager.

He delivered 5 more wins than the Pythagorean estimate for that team.

Ventura is delivering 4 fewers wins so far using that metric (from Baseball Reference), 3 fewer wins in 2012.

I'd like to turn the tables-

After 2 full seasons of Robin Ventura as a manager- what EXACTLY is the evidence or case for him to come back next year?
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  #137  
Old 09-22-2013, 02:01 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
No- with a starting line up of Bruce Kimm, Mike Squires, Jim Morrison, Todd Cruz, Kevin Bell, Bob Molinaro, a rookie Harold Baines, Chet Lemon and Lamar Johnson- the fact that LaRussa could get 70 wins out of the wreckage was a testament to his future potential as a manager.

He delivered 5 more wins than the Pythagorean estimate for that team.

Ventura is delivering 4 fewers wins so far using that metric (from Baseball Reference), 3 fewer wins in 2012.

I'd like to turn the tables-

After 2 full seasons of Robin Ventura as a manager- what EXACTLY is the evidence or case for him to come back next year?
Have you checked out the Sox roster? Seriously. Putting losses on the manager would be like saying the reason Konerko is slow is he wasn't taught the proper way to run. I don't believe they way you are judging him on wins and losses, when several people thought the Sox would step back and they have unloaded some talent from their roster, is the way you would like to be judged in real life. If they guy had a stacked roster and this was happening, fine. But its not and you know it.

Besides, he gets another year of experience under his belt. That means he is only going to get better. I read experience is the key right on this board.i do like that you used the Pythagorean number. Joe Maddon was minus 4 his first year at TB. Minus 1 the next year, yet people here want the guy who stands next to him and is more quiet than Robin to manage the Sox. Unless you are Phil Rogers, using that number to judge a manager is silly, especially of a 95 plus loss team.

Last edited by dickallen15; 09-22-2013 at 02:08 PM.
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  #138  
Old 09-22-2013, 06:43 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
No- with a starting line up of Bruce Kimm, Mike Squires, Jim Morrison, Todd Cruz, Kevin Bell, Bob Molinaro, a rookie Harold Baines, Chet Lemon and Lamar Johnson- the fact that LaRussa could get 70 wins out of the wreckage was a testament to his future potential as a manager.
The 2013 and 1980 lineups were equally bad. 2013 is a better team all around because of the starting pitching.

c: Kimm vs Flowers - wash (disastrous years for both teams)
1b: Squires vs Konerko - slight edge to 1980
2b: Morrison vs Beckham - slight edge to 1980
ss: Cruz vs Ramirez - clear edge to 2013
3b: Bell vs Keppinger/Gillaspie - clear edge to 2013 (that's how bad Bell was)
lf: Molinaro vs Viciedo - clear edge to 1980
cf: Lemon vs De Aza - clear edge to 1980
rf: Baines vs Rios/Garcia - edge to 2013 for single season, 1980 for potential
dh: Johnson vs Dunn - clear edge to 2013
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  #139  
Old 09-22-2013, 06:56 PM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
The fact is for those who think Ventura's hiring was a publicity stunt, thatt he Sox figured they couldn't contend. You are actually making the case that this precious experience you all seem to think is necessary, is not necessary as the team not supposed to contend, contended.
Are we considering being the seventh best team in the league 'contending'?
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  #140  
Old 09-22-2013, 07:21 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Have you checked out the Sox roster? Seriously. Putting losses on the manager would be like saying the reason Konerko is slow is he wasn't taught the proper way to run. I don't believe they way you are judging him on wins and losses, when several people thought the Sox would step back and they have unloaded some talent from their roster, is the way you would like to be judged in real life. If they guy had a stacked roster and this was happening, fine. But its not and you know it.

Besides, he gets another year of experience under his belt. That means he is only going to get better. I read experience is the key right on this board.i do like that you used the Pythagorean number. Joe Maddon was minus 4 his first year at TB. Minus 1 the next year, yet people here want the guy who stands next to him and is more quiet than Robin to manage the Sox. Unless you are Phil Rogers, using that number to judge a manager is silly, especially of a 95 plus loss team.
I think I can discern between a bad manager and one who is a good manager but stuck with a bad roster.

Larussa was a good manager- saddled with a bad team in 1979-80.
I thought he made moves that made the most of what he had to work with- and that the team played better fundamentals then the previous manager (Kessinger and before that Doby).

After two years of watching Ventura- I just don't see any evidence he's a good manager- even when I've filtered out the talent he has had to work with.

And now- he just seems in over his head- it's subjective and some of it is instinct- but he just seems lost to me. I want to be wrong- he's one of my all time favorite players, I supported his original hiring, and thought he got off to an interesting start-

I still haven't seen a single post in this thread where anyone specifically describes where they think ANY part of his game as a manager is strong (handling pitchers? teaching young players? getting the most out of veterans? solid fundamentals? high energy? aggressive in game moves? anything?)
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  #141  
Old 09-22-2013, 07:38 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
With your logic. Tiger Woods couldnt help you with your golf swing.
Big difference. Robin may be able to help Garcia be more selective at the plate or hit to the opposite field. But he may not be able to help him when he is in a slump or has off the field problems distracting him.
In the business world, everyone is not cut out to be the manager of a department. In the military, everyone is not cut out to be an officer.

Now most fans can only go by results since they are not in the clubhouse. Robin may be a great manager. But you cannot come to that assumption because he had longevity. Hopefully Hahn has the power to decide if he is right or wrong for the job.
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  #142  
Old 09-25-2013, 03:43 PM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is offline
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Default Monday, September 30, 2013

I'm hoping for the following 3 announcements next Monday, September 30, 2013.
1) Robin Ventura is no longer the manager of the White Sox.
2) The White Sox are done with Adam Dunn.
3) Steve Stone is being replaced by Dan Plesac in the TV booth. Plesac filled in for Stone last week and I really liked him with Hawk. He also pointed out that he grew up a White Sox fan in Indiana and he use to go to the White Sox games when he was growing up. Let Stone go back to the Cubs where he belongs.

Last edited by Golden Sox; 09-25-2013 at 03:56 PM.
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  #143  
Old 09-25-2013, 05:43 PM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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Originally Posted by Golden Sox View Post
1) Robin Ventura is no longer the manager of the White Sox.
2) The White Sox are done with Adam Dunn.
Hate to break it ya but the Sox aren't gonna announce a 16$M+ loss anytime soon.
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  #144  
Old 09-25-2013, 08:15 PM
SouthSideMike SouthSideMike is offline
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Originally Posted by Golden Sox View Post
I'm hoping for the following 3 announcements next Monday, September 30, 2013.
1) Robin Ventura is no longer the manager of the White Sox.
2) The White Sox are done with Adam Dunn.
3) Steve Stone is being replaced by Dan Plesac in the TV booth. Plesac filled in for Stone last week and I really liked him with Hawk. He also pointed out that he grew up a White Sox fan in Indiana and he use to go to the White Sox games when he was growing up. Let Stone go back to the Cubs where he belongs.

The only hope was Dunn hitting well enough to garner interest during the Winter meetings. Sadly, he's taken a complete nosedive the past month.

His Sept slash line is .121/.203/.224/.427 with 2 HR, 4 RBIs, and 31 SOs.

That is comically bad. We're stuck with him till the end
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  #145  
Old 09-25-2013, 09:26 PM
insp insp is offline
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He should be fired.
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  #146  
Old 09-26-2013, 08:57 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by SouthSideMike View Post
The only hope was Dunn hitting well enough to garner interest during the Winter meetings. Sadly, he's taken a complete nosedive the past month.

His Sept slash line is .121/.203/.224/.427 with 2 HR, 4 RBIs, and 31 SOs.

That is comically bad. We're stuck with him till the end
Not the end, but next deadline. Someone will take him off our hands for 2 months salary.

I'd be hopeful that he (and Konerko) retires, but IMO the MLBPA likely would pressure Dunn not to do that and leave so much cash on the table.
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  #147  
Old 09-26-2013, 09:14 AM
wilburaga wilburaga is offline
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I don't see how we can bring Ventura back given that his WARM (wins against replacement manager) is -7.
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  #148  
Old 09-26-2013, 06:55 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by wilburaga View Post
I don't see how we can bring Ventura back given that his WARM (wins against replacement manager) is -7.
Yes, but the team WART is -9, so Ventura's actually helped.
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  #149  
Old 09-27-2013, 05:50 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Hahn says Ventura will be back in 2014...

http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/...white-sox-2014

Not as supportive of the entire coaching staff, however
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  #150  
Old 09-27-2013, 07:40 PM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Ventura
Iím happy with the work everybody has done here.
Holy ****, his expectations are lower than ours.
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