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  #61  
Old 09-18-2013, 08:19 AM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
My view is that a manager doesn't have that much impact on a team's performance. I don't blame Ventura for failing to win with a horrible team, and I see no reason to change managers. It's not like next year's team will be much better, so why waste money on a better manager?
Because if it's obvious he isn't going to be with the team in 2015, why keep him in 14? If they have an idea who they want in charge during the rebuild, why wait a year.

Also, if Thome becomes manager at any point in the next 3 years, it's clear ownership is not that concerned with actually making the team competitive.
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  #62  
Old 09-18-2013, 08:20 AM
balke balke is offline
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I guess it comes down to this: do people really have evidence to back up the idea that Ventura has "lost the clubhouse" or are people just assuming that because he isn't magically making these terrible players better?

My view is that a manager doesn't have that much impact on a team's performance. I don't blame Ventura for failing to win with a horrible team, and I see no reason to change managers. It's not like next year's team will be much better, so why waste money on a better manager?

I've heard before a manager can account for 20% performance difference in sports. What's 20% of nothin?
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  #63  
Old 09-18-2013, 12:11 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
My view is that a manager doesn't have that much impact on a team's performance.
Then why doesn't everyone just hire anyone to manage? Come on HomeFish.
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  #64  
Old 09-18-2013, 02:25 PM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
I guess it comes down to this: do people really have evidence to back up the idea that Ventura has "lost the clubhouse" or are people just assuming that because he isn't magically making these terrible players better?

My view is that a manager doesn't have that much impact on a team's performance. I don't blame Ventura for failing to win with a horrible team, and I see no reason to change managers. It's not like next year's team will be much better, so why waste money on a better manager?
They don't, and I hate that phrase. It takes accountability away from the players, who are responsible for their own dreadful performance.

I'll be honest: I don't care what they do with Robin. Keep him, fire him, whatever. The manager's chair is so far down my list of worries. We have a roster that has holes in it like Swiss cheese. We need some people who can hit the damn ball, catch the damn ball and run the damn bases more than we need a new manager.
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  #65  
Old 09-18-2013, 03:17 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Tampa Bay is 8-15 their last 23 games. Falling apart at the end of the season just like the White Sox did last year. Clearly, when that happens, it's the manager's fault. If their upper management is smart Joe Maddon should get fired, and no one should ever hire him again. He obviously has no clue. Look at his record his first couple of years managing. He almost lost 100 games.

I find it funny people tell you if you don't 100% rely on advanced metrics, or new stats, you really don't know what you are talking about, yet these same people are old school when it comes to a team that has been struggling. Fire the manager, he has no clue. W/L supposedly means nothing for a pitcher, but with a manager, that's all that matters. When the Sox get better players, Robin will be a better manager. They played better last year despite Konerko getting hurt, despite Youkilis with a bad back, despite Dunn getting hurt, despite all the rookie pitchers they used, but ultimately fell short because frankly, they ran out of bullets. This year they have been awful, but how is that on the manager? Is there a person alive that could have managed this team into contention? Use some common sense. It fascinates me how some just love seeing someone get fired, then they will use the accountability card. The reality is using the accountability card would be blaming the players, not the guy who is stuck playing them.
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  #66  
Old 09-18-2013, 03:34 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
I find it funny people tell you if you don't 100% rely on advanced metrics, or new stats, you really don't know what you are talking about, yet these same people are old school when it comes to a team that has been struggling. Fire the manager, he has no clue. W/L supposedly means nothing for a pitcher, but with a manager, that's all that matters. When the Sox get better players, Robin will be a better manager.
None of you seem to be able to explain how, by this reasoning, managers do not matter one lick, and if that is so, why teams ever care who the manager is.
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  #67  
Old 09-18-2013, 05:18 PM
QReedSale88 QReedSale88 is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Tampa Bay is 8-15 their last 23 games. Falling apart at the end of the season just like the White Sox did last year. Clearly, when that happens, it's the manager's fault. If their upper management is smart Joe Maddon should get fired, and no one should ever hire him again. He obviously has no clue. Look at his record his first couple of years managing. He almost lost 100 games.

I find it funny people tell you if you don't 100% rely on advanced metrics, or new stats, you really don't know what you are talking about, yet these same people are old school when it comes to a team that has been struggling. Fire the manager, he has no clue. W/L supposedly means nothing for a pitcher, but with a manager, that's all that matters. When the Sox get better players, Robin will be a better manager. They played better last year despite Konerko getting hurt, despite Youkilis with a bad back, despite Dunn getting hurt, despite all the rookie pitchers they used, but ultimately fell short because frankly, they ran out of bullets. This year they have been awful, but how is that on the manager? Is there a person alive that could have managed this team into contention? Use some common sense. It fascinates me how some just love seeing someone get fired, then they will use the accountability card. The reality is using the accountability card would be blaming the players, not the guy who is stuck playing them.
W/L for a pitcher doesn't always reflect on his performance. A pitcher doesn't have control over the offense, the teams defense or the bullpen. W/L for a team always reflects on the team and manager. So yes it's all that matters when it comes to the manager.
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  #68  
Old 09-18-2013, 06:37 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Tampa Bay is 8-15 their last 23 games. Falling apart at the end of the season just like the White Sox did last year. Clearly, when that happens, it's the manager's fault..
He also took his team to the WS, and several playoff berths, and still may make the playoffs this year. also, his team has never tanked and mailed it in like this one has.
Et tu, Ventura?

That was decent logic not to fire him after last season, but this season? Good gracious.
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  #69  
Old 09-18-2013, 07:02 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by ZombieRob View Post
Ozzie did have experience 3rd base coach for the Braves and won a ring as a 3rd bse coach for the Marlins. Cox and Mckeon 2 great ones to learn under. What does Ventura have? Some high school? He should of been made Batting Coach and been groomed
Robin managed last season and won 85 games.
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  #70  
Old 09-18-2013, 07:05 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
He also took his team to the WS, and several playoff berths, and still may make the playoffs this year. also, his team has never tanked and mailed it in like this one has.
Et tu, Ventura?

That was decent logic not to fire him after last season, but this season? Good gracious.
Maddon's first year with the Rays they lost 101. The second year they lost 96. If he was so great, how did that happen? Please name one guy that would have this current White Sox roster in contention. The team is lacking talent.
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  #71  
Old 09-18-2013, 07:07 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by QReedSale88 View Post
W/L for a pitcher doesn't always reflect on his performance. A pitcher doesn't have control over the offense, the teams defense or the bullpen. W/L for a team always reflects on the team and manager. So yes it's all that matters when it comes to the manager.
W/L with a manager depends on his team's talent level. All managers you would probably consider at the top of their field have had some tough seasons. It wasn't because they suddenly got dumb.
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  #72  
Old 09-18-2013, 07:11 PM
BainesHOF BainesHOF is offline
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I came to the conclusion today that I won't be going to any games as long as Ventura remains the manager. I haven't been to the park since May. This team is sickening to watch. If Hahn/Reinsdorf bring Ventura back for his final year, it'll be an insult to my baseball intelligence and White Sox fandom. I'm not going to support such nonsense.

If anyone doesn't think a manager/coach doesn't make a difference, look at the Bears.
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  #73  
Old 09-18-2013, 07:19 PM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Maddon's first year with the Rays they lost 101. The second year they lost 96. If he was so great, how did that happen? Please name one guy that would have this current White Sox roster in contention. The team is lacking talent.
No one would. But a manager that competently handles his roster, holds player accountable, and that has the appearance of giving a **** would be a start.
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  #74  
Old 09-18-2013, 07:22 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by amsteel View Post
No one would. But a manager that competently handles his roster, holds player accountable, and that has the appearance of giving a **** would be a start.
Besides people complaining on a message board who aren't there, has anyone ever indicated Robin doesn't give a ****?

Its amazing how many people think everyone in charge has to be like Ditka. If you had a boss like Ditka, would that make you better?
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  #75  
Old 09-18-2013, 07:23 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by BainesHOF View Post
I came to the conclusion today that I won't be going to any games as long as Ventura remains the manager. I haven't been to the park since May. This team is sickening to watch. If Hahn/Reinsdorf bring Ventura back for his final year, it'll be an insult to my baseball intelligence and White Sox fandom. I'm not going to support such nonsense.

If anyone doesn't think a manager/coach doesn't make a difference, look at the Bears.
Wern't the Bears 7-1 last yeat? Even their players are saying they are lucky they aren't 0-2 right now. If Dez Clark was on the roster instead of Bennett, Bears fans would be on the Hawks and Bulls right now.

Last edited by dickallen15; 09-18-2013 at 07:55 PM.
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