White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
Congratulations on winning the Sporting News ROTY award, Jose!

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46  
Old 09-15-2013, 09:48 PM
doublem23's Avatar
doublem23 doublem23 is offline
MMXXIII
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Roscoe Village
Posts: 54,198
Blog Entries: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
This is where the stat crowd loses me. Why should you ignore pitchers W-L record? Or ERA? A fielders fielding Pct? They all count and they all matter, but everything in context. It gets ridiculous after awhile. I sometimes feel like I stepped down a rabbit hole where Pythagorean wins are more important than real ones. I turned 8 the year Yankee pitcher Bullet Bob Turley won the Cy Young. They only gave one of those a year from 1956-66. A lot us, including the little kid that was me knew Billy Pierce was better than Turley that year. We weren't all morons waiting for a savior like Bill James to appear. One of the indicators that Pierce had a great year was his ERA. Yeah I know, ERA is good for a laugh too.
Because they're ****ty stats
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 09-16-2013, 12:45 AM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is online now
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Aurora Illinois
Posts: 1,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
This is where the stat crowd loses me. Why should you ignore pitchers W-L record? Or ERA? A fielders fielding Pct? They all count and they all matter, but everything in context. It gets ridiculous after awhile. I sometimes feel like I stepped down a rabbit hole where Pythagorean wins are more important than real ones. I turned 8 the year Yankee pitcher Bullet Bob Turley won the Cy Young. They only gave one of those a year from 1956-66. A lot us, including the little kid that was me knew Billy Pierce was better than Turley that year. We weren't all morons waiting for a savior like Bill James to appear. One of the indicators that Pierce had a great year was his ERA. Yeah I know, ERA is good for a laugh too.
One of the best managers of all time (John Mcgraw) once was told a player in the minors had never made an error and McGraw replied "If this kid has never made an error then I don't want him because he's not going after the hard ones. Smart men like McGraw knew even in the 1920's that fielding percentage meant nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 09-16-2013, 06:34 AM
Zakath Zakath is online now
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In the water barrel off the now-finished Borman Expressway
Posts: 7,442
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
One of the best managers of all time (John Mcgraw) once was told a player in the minors had never made an error and McGraw replied "If this kid has never made an error then I don't want him because he's not going after the hard ones. Smart men like McGraw knew even in the 1920's that fielding percentage meant nothing.
Too bad no one remembered that the year they gave Jeter the Gold Glove when he only had 6 errors...
__________________
I want my $2.

Obligatory 2014 attendance record: 1-1

If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there.

JACK....IS....BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 09-16-2013, 08:12 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,434
Default

Sale won't get the Cy Young this year, but I can definitely see him being a Cy Young winner in the years to come.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 09-16-2013, 08:17 AM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oswego, IL
Posts: 5,976
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
One of the best managers of all time (John Mcgraw) once was told a player in the minors had never made an error and McGraw replied "If this kid has never made an error then I don't want him because he's not going after the hard ones. Smart men like McGraw knew even in the 1920's that fielding percentage meant nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakath View Post
Too bad no one remembered that the year they gave Jeter the Gold Glove when he only had 6 errors...
Then there's also this from Branch Rickey:

Quote:
Fielding averages? Utterly worthless as a yardstick. They are not only misleading, but deceiving. Take Zeke Bonura, the old White Sox first baseman, generally regarded as a poor fielder. The fielding averages showed that he led American League in fielding for three years. Why? Zeke had "good hands"! Anything he reached, he held. Result: an absence of errors. But he was also slow moving and did not cover much territory. Balls that a quicker man may have fielded went for base hits, but the fielding averages do not reflect this.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 09-16-2013, 09:40 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the heart of Dixie
Posts: 4,412
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Because they're ****ty stats
No stat is ****ty and no stat tells the tale. Any report, summary, etc should be comprehensive. If I'm evaluating someone or something I want all the data I can get my hands on.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 09-16-2013, 10:05 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the heart of Dixie
Posts: 4,412
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
One of the best managers of all time (John Mcgraw) once was told a player in the minors had never made an error and McGraw replied "If this kid has never made an error then I don't want him because he's not going after the hard ones. Smart men like McGraw knew even in the 1920's that fielding percentage meant nothing.
Of course fielding average means something. Larry Bowa was a fine fielding short stop who retired with a .980 fielding Pct, which I believe was the record back then. Was he better than Ozzie Smith who retired with a .978 fielding Pct? Hell no, Bowa was a good to very good fielding shortstop but Smith was so great no adjectives will do him justice. Nor was Bowa better than Luis Aparicio who left the game at .972. Like I posted previously everything in context. I could never have pursued some of the work I did in such a manner. This doesn't count, that doesn't matter. It all does, you just need to put it together and have the ability to evaluate. I have heard or read at one time or another that BA, RBIs, FA, ERA, etc don't matter. Don't even bring up the idea of clutch because it doesn't exist. I will never operate like that.

As for Sale, in what should be a close race for the Cy Young honors he did himself no good by getting pounded by the Indians yesterday. He's not going to get the Cy Young this year and he probably doesn't deserve it. However Sale is so talented that I could envision him going 25-4 some year, like Whitey Ford did in 1961. I guess we'll get lectured then on how those wins and that stat means nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 09-16-2013, 10:17 AM
doublem23's Avatar
doublem23 doublem23 is offline
MMXXIII
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Roscoe Village
Posts: 54,198
Blog Entries: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
No stat is ****ty and no stat tells the tale. Any report, summary, etc should be comprehensive. If I'm evaluating someone or something I want all the data I can get my hands on.
Except that all data is not good data. It's just as important, if not moreso, to be able to tell what data is useful and how to distinguish it from what is not. Worrying about stats like pitcher wins, saves, errors, there's a reason nobody takes them seriously. Because they're just bad stats. They don't tell anything useful that you can't find from better, stats.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 09-16-2013, 10:44 AM
doublem23's Avatar
doublem23 doublem23 is offline
MMXXIII
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Roscoe Village
Posts: 54,198
Blog Entries: 5
Default

Here's a basic litmus test to determine if a stat is a "good" stat or a "bad" stat...

Does that stat rely highly on the 1 vs. 1, pitcher vs. batter phenomenon that makes baseball so conducive to statistical analysis? Then it is a good stat. Examples - OBP, K, BABIP, etc.

Does a stat rely highly on the performance or influence of players or people outside the P vs. Batter battle? Then it is a bad stat. Examples: Pitcher W-L record, Saves, RBI
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 09-16-2013, 10:55 AM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oswego, IL
Posts: 5,976
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Here's a basic litmus test to determine if a stat is a "good" stat or a "bad" stat...

Does that stat rely highly on the 1 vs. 1, pitcher vs. batter phenomenon that makes baseball so conducive to statistical analysis? Then it is a good stat. Examples - OBP, K, BABIP, etc.

Does a stat rely highly on the performance or influence of players or people outside the P vs. Batter battle? Then it is a bad stat. Examples: Pitcher W-L record, Saves, RBI
End of conversation, as far as I'm concerned.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 09-16-2013, 03:01 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 18,238
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Here's a basic litmus test to determine if a stat is a "good" stat or a "bad" stat...

Does that stat rely highly on the 1 vs. 1, pitcher vs. batter phenomenon that makes baseball so conducive to statistical analysis? Then it is a good stat. Examples - OBP, K, BABIP, etc.

Does a stat rely highly on the performance or influence of players or people outside the P vs. Batter battle? Then it is a bad stat. Examples: Pitcher W-L record, Saves, RBI
Hammer. Nail. Head.
__________________
Ridiculousness across all sports:

(1) "You have no valid opinion because you never played the game."
(2) "Stats are irrelevant. This guy just doesn't know how to win."
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 09-16-2013, 03:05 PM
FielderJones's Avatar
FielderJones FielderJones is offline
WSI Village Atheist
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Clarendon Hills
Posts: 4,986
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Does that stat rely highly on the 1 vs. 1, pitcher vs. batter phenomenon that makes baseball so conducive to statistical analysis? Then it is a good stat. Examples - OBP, K, BABIP, etc.
Isn't BABIP influenced by the positioning of the other 8?
__________________
2014 Attendance Record: 7 - 5

March 31 W
April 10 W
April 26 L
May 10 L
May 28 W
June 1 W
June 14 L
July 4 W
July 18 W
August 30 (2) L
September 14 L
September 27 W

Next Game: ??
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 09-16-2013, 03:41 PM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 16,284
Default

If you are using stats to tell you Chris Sale is having an equivalent or even better season than Max Scherzer, you are demonstrating how stats can be used to show something that anyone following this baseball season should be able to see is untrue. Take your argument beyond people who agree with you and you will only discredit yourselves among those outside of your camp.

Arguing that Sale is more talented, has a better future, is intrinsically a better pitcher, someone who will be better in his next start or next year may be legitimate. Arguing that Sale been as good a pitcher this year, in the real world, in a perfect world where people watch baseball, is not.

Take your Sale-deserves-the-Cy-Young-Award argument beyond White Sox Nation, and you will find more incredulity than support.

I am a White Sox fan. I like Chris Sale. I have no fondness for Max Scherzer or the Tigers. But when Scherzer wins the Cy Young Award, when Sale doesn't get any first-place votes, I won't be whining about Sale getting cheated.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 09-16-2013, 03:55 PM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oswego, IL
Posts: 5,976
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
If you are using stats to tell you Chris Sale is having an equivalent or even better season than Max Scherzer, you are demonstrating how stats can be used to show something that anyone following this baseball season should be able to see is untrue. Take your argument beyond people who agree with you and you will only discredit yourselves among those outside of your camp.

Arguing that Sale is more talented, has a better future, is intrinsically a better pitcher, someone who will be better in his next start or next year may be legitimate. Arguing that Sale been as good a pitcher this year, in the real world, in a perfect world where people watch baseball, is not.
You live on another planet. Just about every stat (EXCEPT FOR W-L) shows that there is at most a negligible difference between the two. I can't believe this thread is still going on.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 09-16-2013, 04:18 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,133
Default

I don't really see the value of BABIP in measuring performance. In predicting future performance, maybe. To me IP and ERA are the main way to judge a starting pitcher's results. Who cares if hitters are getting hits when they put the ball in play, if they're not crossing the plate? You can look at that and say, he's probably not going to sustain that in the future, but if you're looking back at a past season and judging the result it's irrelevant. I'll take the low ERA, 250 IP pitcher every time.
__________________
A bad idea is better than no idea at all- Hawk

Last edited by TheVulture; 09-16-2013 at 04:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:56 PM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.