White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
Congratulations on the Rookie records for HR and RBI in April, Jose!

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


View Poll Results: What should we do with Sale for the rest of the year?
Shut him down! Not worth the risk. 5 4.63%
Ease him out. Miss a few starts. 54 50.00%
Pitch him and build up arm strength so he's effective longer next year. 37 34.26%
Let him eat churros! 12 11.11%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 08-26-2013, 10:43 AM
SBSoxFan SBSoxFan is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: South Bend, IN
Posts: 2,952
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
I say stretch him out. You don't train for marathons by running 5Ks.
Interestingly, people don't train for marathons by running marathon distances either. But if you are going to run them regularly, or pitch an entire baseball season regularly, you probably do need to consistently train to an appropriate distance. Is that 200 IP, 230 IP? It seems any starter should be expected to reach the low-200s in IP. Only if a starter is pitching in the post season will the IP increase significantly. You know exactly how long a marathon is. You don't have that luxury during a baseball season.

Most marathon training regimes typically max out at about 20 miles. I've never understood that; I once road a bicycle from Minneapolis to Chicago over the course of 6 days. We knew we would have to ride about 100 miles one of the days so we trained to and did at least one 100 mile training ride. I guess the thought behind not training to the required distance is that the adrenaline of the marathon itself will carry you those last 6.2 miles. It's probably the same with baseball playoffs.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 08-26-2013, 11:00 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 18,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
I am not evading anything. The following is the point in my argument.

Show me the pitchers who have been shut down when they have pitched more innings than they have ever pitched before and show me a list of pitchers who haven't been shut down when they have pitched more innings than they have ever pitched before if you want to call it a trend.
As soon as you show me pitchers who have shut themselves down to preserve their stats, I'll go do this research. You statement regarding that, IMO, is totally unfounded. Thus, your answers have been evasive on that point. But nice way to put the onus on me because you don't want to do the research. A common theme on these boards when people make assertions without data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Maybe what the Mets are doing with Harvey has an appeal to people to a segment of fans, but it isn't the way most of baseball operates.
It obviously has an appeal to organizations recently. We hear about it every season now for the past three, and especially two. We never used to hear about it before. Maybe "It seems to be a growing trend" is what I should have stated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
For that matter, no one has even shown that pitchers who have their innings limited have longer careers than pitchers who don't.
Correct, because this practice has only started recently. In 30 years, we will probably know if it makes any difference. I am just saying that teams are operating on that premise now - right or wrong - and not some wacky "stats saving" theory because the "They're tired and we want to limit innings and save their arm" practice is some tinfoil hat thought.
__________________
Ridiculousness across all sports:

(1) "You have no valid opinion because you never played the game."
(2) "Stats are irrelevant. This guy just doesn't know how to win."
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 08-26-2013, 11:35 AM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 16,139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
As soon as you show me pitchers who have shut themselves down to preserve their stats, I'll go do this research. You statement regarding that, IMO, is totally unfounded. Thus, your answers have been evasive on that point. But nice way to put the onus on me because you don't want to do the research. A common theme on these boards when people make assertions without data.



It obviously has an appeal to organizations recently. We hear about it every season now for the past three, and especially two. We never used to hear about it before. Maybe "It seems to be a growing trend" is what I should have stated.

For that matter, no one has even shown that pitchers who have their innings limited have longer careers than pitchers who don't.
First of all, you are obsessing over a flippant aside that I made, that being that the only thing Harvey would have to gain by shutting himself down would be protecting his statistics. Really, it's more possible that he is injured and keeping it a secret, which would be more honorable, but again is wild speculation. Pitchers generally don't shut themselves down. They want to pitch. They want to pitch even when they are not 100 percent. The more they show they can do, the higher their earnings. For Strasburg, that isn't an issue. You would think for Harvey it would be. Most pitchers have the mentality of James Baldwin in 2000 or Jake Peavy more recently who only shut down when they can and, if anything, come back too soon.

Secondly, you are looking at isolated decisions made by a limited number of people while ignoring the mainstream baseball thought that is in disagreement. In September there will be prospects making starts for teams, contenders and non-contenders alike, who have pitched appreciably more innings this year than they have ever pitched before.

I have no doubt that Sale is tired. I have no doubt that Peavy is tired. I have no doubt that Verlander and Scherzer are tired. Even if they say they feel great, it is in the context of being veteran major league pitchers , knowing what pitching a major league season feels like and just feeling tired. In Hector Santiago's next start, he will surpass his career high in innings pitched, and I have no doubt he's tired.

Being a quality major league pitcher means pitching a major league season. I trust that if the White Sox don't shut down Sale, they know what they are doing.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 08-26-2013, 02:05 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 18,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
I trust that if the White Sox don't shut down Sale, they know what they are doing.
As do I - we do not have enough data to know if limiting innings early on in pro careers is important.

What I do hate is managers like Terry Collins leaving Harvey in for 125 pitches when they already plan on shutting him down later.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 08-26-2013, 03:12 PM
DeadMoney DeadMoney is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,524
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
As do I - we do not have enough data to know if limiting innings early on in pro careers is important.

What I do hate is managers like Terry Collins leaving Harvey in for 125 pitches when they already plan on shutting him down later.
Harvey has a partially torn UCL, will be DLd and may need Tommy John (which will be decided at a later date). The 'Arm Tear Roulette Wheel' strikes again.

As for Sale - my opinion now and in the future will always be: 'Use him until you lose him'. With pitchers, you have to just start assuming they'll need some major arm surgery at some point in their career. Innings limits, pitch count limits, wear and tear, mechanics, velocity, etc. mean nothing to me any longer. The odds are that if you're a professional pitcher, a major arm surgery will hit you at some point, no matter what anyone tries to do to prevent it. And if you're one of the lucky few who makes it through a career without your prized arm going under the knife, count your blessings because you are truly one of the lucky/gifted few.

Edit: I will say that the 'use him until you lose him' approach isn't me advocating for intentionally running guys into the ground. There's a way to do things within reason. A useful increase in innings over the course of the beginning of a career, while the pitcher is also learning how to make it through an entire season is important. The pitcher, the pitching coach, the manager, and the trainers are all professionals though. They should have an idea what is 'within reason' for a guy and act accordingly.
__________________


Last edited by DeadMoney; 08-26-2013 at 03:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 08-26-2013, 03:33 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 18,189
Default

Let me again say - so no one can say I don't eat crow where needed - I was wrong and TDog's instincts were right on Harvey (though, to be honest, the Mets announced it a month ago and *may* not have had knowledge of injury then). But teams are still shutting down guys, so I think my main point still stands. I just picked the wrong dude!
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 08-26-2013, 06:40 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,903
Default

The Sox shut down Danks early in 2007.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 08-26-2013, 07:27 PM
Mr. Jinx Mr. Jinx is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 788
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
The Sox shut down Danks early in 2007.
And look how great it turned out for them.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 08-26-2013, 08:55 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the heart of Dixie
Posts: 4,359
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadMoney View Post
Harvey has a partially torn UCL, will be DLd and may need Tommy John (which will be decided at a later date). The 'Arm Tear Roulette Wheel' strikes again.

As for Sale - my opinion now and in the future will always be: 'Use him until you lose him'. With pitchers, you have to just start assuming they'll need some major arm surgery at some point in their career. Innings limits, pitch count limits, wear and tear, mechanics, velocity, etc. mean nothing to me any longer. The odds are that if you're a professional pitcher, a major arm surgery will hit you at some point, no matter what anyone tries to do to prevent it. And if you're one of the lucky few who makes it through a career without your prized arm going under the knife, count your blessings because you are truly one of the lucky/gifted few.

Edit: I will say that the 'use him until you lose him' approach isn't me advocating for intentionally running guys into the ground. There's a way to do things within reason. A useful increase in innings over the course of the beginning of a career, while the pitcher is also learning how to make it through an entire season is important. The pitcher, the pitching coach, the manager, and the trainers are all professionals though. They should have an idea what is 'within reason' for a guy and act accordingly.
I'm in complete agreement with this. The way pitchers seem to do down these days its become ridiculous. Use them, but monitor them not only when they're on the mound, but in the days between starts too. What else is there to do? Pitchers keep getting hurt no matter what is or isn't done.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 08-27-2013, 10:14 AM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,700
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
He is being shut down because he is soon going to pitch more innings in a professional year than he has ever done, and the Mets are well out of it.

Whether one thinks it's the right thing to do or some "new coddling trend," baseball is different today than it was even ten years ago - a lot of young pitchers used to start in the pen - now, more and more are being brought in to be in the rotation immediately. I am sure innings limits are tracked in the minors, as well.

I hate to be one of the people to make this type of comment, but your assertion of your opinion as fact really calls for it: I trust major league baseball organizations who have shifted to this model over the opinions of fans.

I know I am being harsh, but you are always a poster who, whether I agree with the post or not, makes points backed by rational statements and, importantly, facts. Just hoping you would do the same here.

Also, since you conveniently ignored it while making bold statements of "opinion/fact," I'll wait while you go take a look for the pitchers who just quit on the season early to protect their stats. I am pretty sure I won't get much of or any response there.
What? Huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
It depends on the fanbase. The White Sox fanbase doesn't show their players the sort of respect that fans in other cities show their players, at least not one they're still active.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
It isn't like Jones can take his place occasionally because he has been needed in most of the games where Reed has pitched. And Thornton was traded by popular demand.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 08-27-2013, 10:33 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 18,189
Default

So, here is an interesting article (based on actual evidence) analyzing all the possibilities regarding injuries to Harvey, Strasburg, and other young pitchers, basically saying there is no real indicator, and that stats do *not* back up the "pitching more innings" theory.

Link
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 08-27-2013, 02:47 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the heart of Dixie
Posts: 4,359
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
So, here is an interesting article (based on actual evidence) analyzing all the possibilities regarding injuries to Harvey, Strasburg, and other young pitchers, basically saying there is no real indicator, and that stats do *not* back up the "pitching more innings" theory.

Link
One thing a poster will do to rip on another poster is to criticize "reading comprehension." OK maybe as I approach doddering old age I'm losing it but I didn't catch the bolded part in the article. In fact, and I hesitate to quote because of site rules, but didn't the author state that Harvey's extra innings pitched didn't cause his injury. Or at least the evidence didn't indicate as much. So I'm not being snarky, but politely asking where I missed the bolded. You are even welcome to criticize my reading comprehension. I just got home after a long walk in the South Carolina afternoon heat so I may use that as an excuse. Also thanks for the link. It was an interesting read.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 08-27-2013, 06:56 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 18,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
One thing a poster will do to rip on another poster is to criticize "reading comprehension." OK maybe as I approach doddering old age I'm losing it but I didn't catch the bolded part in the article. In fact, and I hesitate to quote because of site rules, but didn't the author state that Harvey's extra innings pitched didn't cause his injury. Or at least the evidence didn't indicate as much. So I'm not being snarky, but politely asking where I missed the bolded. You are even welcome to criticize my reading comprehension. I just got home after a long walk in the South Carolina afternoon heat so I may use that as an excuse. Also thanks for the link. It was an interesting read.
What you just said was exactly what I was stating. I just stated it poorly.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:02 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.