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View Poll Results: What should we do with Sale for the rest of the year?
Shut him down! Not worth the risk. 5 4.63%
Ease him out. Miss a few starts. 54 50.00%
Pitch him and build up arm strength so he's effective longer next year. 37 34.26%
Let him eat churros! 12 11.11%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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  #46  
Old 08-25-2013, 02:25 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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I say stretch him out. You don't train for marathons by running 5Ks.
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  #47  
Old 08-25-2013, 02:42 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Or, unless he's lying, he's actually damn tired. Aside from his own words, linked below, take a look at his splits in the second half. He's running out of gas.

Harvey says he's tired
Good thing he'll never pitch for a team that will need him in the second half.

Of course he's tired. Every starter who has been pitching since April is tired after the All-Star break. League pitching splits over the years tend to reflect weaker pitching in August.

Quality starters don't shut down in August to protect their stats. They pitch through it and get their second win in September. Quality starters don't shut down late in the season to protect their stats.
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  #48  
Old 08-25-2013, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Or, unless he's lying, he's actually damn tired. Aside from his own words, linked below, take a look at his splits in the second half. He's running out of gas.

Harvey says he's tired
Harvey is also in his first full MLB season and until you actually go through a season, most guys don't seem to understand how to condition themselves to survive it. A full MLB season is an ordeal and it takes time getting accustomed to it. Quintana last year fell apart late in the season simply because he was unprepared for the physical toll it takes on your body.

But Sale, and Harvey, will eventually need to learn how to go from April to September. Sale is still 20 IP away from his career high of last season. You can't teach a guy to last a full season without asking him to last a full season.
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  #49  
Old 08-25-2013, 03:38 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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If Don Cooper says he can go, put him in the damn game.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #50  
Old 08-25-2013, 04:36 PM
soxfanreggie soxfanreggie is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
I agree with you.
I don't like this stopping pitchers in August stuff. He does have great room for improvement.
As I've said a million times, I just think we should have taken it easy on the number of pitches he actually throw in a given game.
I agree. There's no reason he needs to be throwing over 100 pitches. If he misses a start or two, I'm not opposed to that because we go with a 6-man rotation. If we have some guys we need to see throw, this is the perfect time.
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  #51  
Old 08-25-2013, 05:46 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Harvey is also in his first full MLB season and until you actually go through a season, most guys don't seem to understand how to condition themselves to survive it. A full MLB season is an ordeal and it takes time getting accustomed to it. Quintana last year fell apart late in the season simply because he was unprepared for the physical toll it takes on your body.

But Sale, and Harvey, will eventually need to learn how to go from April to September. Sale is still 20 IP away from his career high of last season. You can't teach a guy to last a full season without asking him to last a full season.
I wasn't really intending to compare the two. Responding to TDog's assertion that the Mets are doing this for financial reasons.
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  #52  
Old 08-25-2013, 05:49 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Quality starters don't shut down in August to protect their stats. They pitch through it and get their second win in September. Quality starters don't shut down late in the season to protect their stats.
Is *that* what Matt Harvey is doing? If you think so, I think you are implying FAR too much from his words. Besides, it is the *team* shutting these guys down. Jeez. Perhaps you are a fan of the Dusty school of managing that unnecessarily puts heavy burdens on young pitchers.

You are also overgeneralizing as to the reason to shut down any starter. Strasburg the other year because of injury. Cashner this year for the same reason (he will be shut down soon). Gerrit Cole is being consistently pushed back.

Are they trying to protect their stats? Name the last few guys who packed it in early to protect their stats. There was probably someone, but I just backed up my position with facts. Your turn.
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  #53  
Old 08-25-2013, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
If Don Cooper says he can go, put him in the damn game.
Ironically, the last time Cooper told Sale he couldn't go, there's was a huge pissing match that involved Sale's agent. Sale's demeanor to me is more similar to Black Jack McDowell than any guy we've had in the past 20 years in terms of being stubborn if not slightly bull-headed. I have a hard time imagining the Sox would be able to shut Sale down without hurt feelings on both sides.
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  #54  
Old 08-25-2013, 06:32 PM
WLL1855 WLL1855 is offline
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Originally Posted by Brian26 View Post
Ironically, the last time Cooper told Sale he couldn't go, there's was a huge pissing match that involved Sale's agent. Sale's demeanor to me is more similar to Black Jack McDowell than any guy we've had in the past 20 years in terms of being stubborn if not slightly bull-headed. I have a hard time imagining the Sox would be able to shut Sale down without hurt feelings on both sides.
In my memory, Black Jack is the best comparison I can come up with for Sale in demeanor and mound presence. Both are spirited. Both want to pitch. Both really want to win.

Stubborn perhaps, but I'm glad a guy with some fire in his belly is playing for us.
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  #55  
Old 08-25-2013, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Is *that* what Matt Harvey is doing? If you think so, I think you are implying FAR too much from his words. Besides, it is the *team* shutting these guys down. Jeez. Perhaps you are a fan of the Dusty school of managing that unnecessarily puts heavy burdens on young pitchers.

You are also overgeneralizing as to the reason to shut down any starter. Strasburg the other year because of injury. Cashner this year for the same reason (he will be shut down soon). Gerrit Cole is being consistently pushed back.

Are they trying to protect their stats? Name the last few guys who packed it in early to protect their stats. There was probably someone, but I just backed up my position with facts. Your turn.
There is no reason to shut down a pitcher because he is tired. Everyone is tired. Not everyone who is under contract to pitch a full season has the luxury of shutting down.

Unless there's an injury no one is talking about, shutting Harvey down will not help him to be a better pitcher in the future.
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  #56  
Old 08-25-2013, 09:06 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
There is no reason to shut down a pitcher because he is tired. Everyone is tired. Not everyone who is under contract to pitch a full season has the luxury of shutting down.

Unless there's an injury no one is talking about, shutting Harvey down will not help him to be a better pitcher in the future.
He is being shut down because he is soon going to pitch more innings in a professional year than he has ever done, and the Mets are well out of it.

Whether one thinks it's the right thing to do or some "new coddling trend," baseball is different today than it was even ten years ago - a lot of young pitchers used to start in the pen - now, more and more are being brought in to be in the rotation immediately. I am sure innings limits are tracked in the minors, as well.

I hate to be one of the people to make this type of comment, but your assertion of your opinion as fact really calls for it: I trust major league baseball organizations who have shifted to this model over the opinions of fans.

I know I am being harsh, but you are always a poster who, whether I agree with the post or not, makes points backed by rational statements and, importantly, facts. Just hoping you would do the same here.

Also, since you conveniently ignored it while making bold statements of "opinion/fact," I'll wait while you go take a look for the pitchers who just quit on the season early to protect their stats. I am pretty sure I won't get much of or any response there.
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  #57  
Old 08-25-2013, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
He is being shut down because he is soon going to pitch more innings in a professional year than he has ever done, and the Mets are well out of it.

Whether one thinks it's the right thing to do or some "new coddling trend," baseball is different today than it was even ten years ago - a lot of young pitchers used to start in the pen - now, more and more are being brought in to be in the rotation immediately. I am sure innings limits are tracked in the minors, as well.

I hate to be one of the people to make this type of comment, but your assertion of your opinion as fact really calls for it: I trust major league baseball organizations who have shifted to this model over the opinions of fans.

I know I am being harsh, but you are always a poster who, whether I agree with the post or not, makes points backed by rational statements and, importantly, facts. Just hoping you would do the same here.

Also, since you conveniently ignored it while making bold statements of "opinion/fact," I'll wait while you go take a look for the pitchers who just quit on the season early to protect their stats. I am pretty sure I won't get much of or any response there.
Shutting down a pitcher because he has pitched more innings than he ever has before is not a trend. More pitchers who have pitched more innings than they ever have before are not being shut down than are being shut down.

In 2011 Dylan Axelrod pitched more than 40 innings more in the minors than he ever had before. The Sox didn't shut him down. They brought him up in September and gave him three starts.

The only reason to shut a pitcher down is fear of injury. It is ridiculous to shut down a healthy major league pitcher simply because he has pitched more innings than he ever has before. Next year, if the Mets are contending, presumably he will be in a similar position at a similar point in the season.

If Harvey is becoming less effective, ending his season early protects his stats. But being a quality major league starting pitcher means pitching through some dead-arm stretches.
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  #58  
Old 08-25-2013, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Shutting down a pitcher because he has pitched more innings than he ever has before is not a trend. More pitchers who have pitched more innings than they ever have before are not being shut down than are being shut down.

In 2011 Dylan Axelrod pitched more than 40 innings more in the minors than he ever had before. The Sox didn't shut him down. They brought him up in September and gave him three starts.

The only reason to shut a pitcher down is fear of injury. It is ridiculous to shut down a healthy major league pitcher simply because he has pitched more innings than he ever has before. Next year, if the Mets are contending, presumably he will be in a similar position at a similar point in the season.

If Harvey is becoming less effective, ending his season early protects his stats. But being a quality major league starting pitcher means pitching through some dead-arm stretches.
You are comparing Dylan Axelrod - Dylan Axelrod - to pitchers who are expected to be the franchise. That may close the case.

And it is a recent trend - ask those who yammer on about 300 innings on three days rest up until the 80s.

Anyway, continue to evade and only partially answer. It is ridiculous to think the Mets or Harvey are protecting stats.

You also haven't addressed any of my other points.
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  #59  
Old 08-26-2013, 02:31 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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You are comparing Dylan Axelrod - Dylan Axelrod - to pitchers who are expected to be the franchise. That may close the case.

And it is a recent trend - ask those who yammer on about 300 innings on three days rest up until the 80s.

Anyway, continue to evade and only partially answer. It is ridiculous to think the Mets or Harvey are protecting stats.

You also haven't addressed any of my other points.
I am not evading anything. The following is the point in my argument.

Show me the pitchers who have been shut down when they have pitched more innings than they have ever pitched before and show me a list of pitchers who haven't been shut down when they have pitched more innings than they have ever pitched before if you want to call it a trend.

This is not a trend. Pitchers not pitching 300 innings is a trend

If shutting down pitchers when they have pitched even 30 percent more innings than ever before is a trend, Axelrod doesn't start three games after making his debut in relief. That is the comparison. There will be teams in September starting young prospects who havealready gone by the most innings they have ever before pitched in a season. Some of the teams will be in contention. More will not be. The only thing Harvey gains by shutting down is whatsome would consider a better statistical year. He loses the experience that he will need if he is ever to be the foundation of a contending rotation. Pitch him deeper into the season this year, and next year he won't reach his career high in innings pitched so quickly.

There are isolated instances of major league organizations shutting pitchers down because they have pitched too many innings. Sometimes previous injuries are not a factor. Otherwise, major league teams are not shutting down their pitchers, even if it's only Dylan Axelrod. It wasn't as if the Sox sacrificed to medicrity and inevitable injury two years ago.

Maybe what the Mets are doing with Harvey has an appeal to people to a segment of fans, but it isn't the way most of baseball operates.

For that matter, no one has even shown that pitchers who have their innings limited have longer careers than pitchers who don't.
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  #60  
Old 08-26-2013, 08:51 AM
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Maybe it's a trend for potential top of the rotation pitchers only.

I think there's a fair amount of anecdotal evidence that young pitchers who get overworked are more likely to suffer injuries and sometimes catastrophic injuries. No team wants to end up with the next Pryor and Wood and have to explain to them why they both ended up with major injuries.

Now probably those guys arms just couldn't handle the stress of big league pitching but plenty of people blame the GM and manager for what happened to them.
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