Mark Buehrle HOF Discussion

[Foulke You]

Originally Posted by TDog

Relative to other fanbases in the majors, the White Sox fanbase is regarded as being on the negative side. That isn't my opinion, although it is an opinion, or at least a judgment. That's what I've heard from people in baseball and people who cover baseball, and that is consistent with what I read at WSI. There are many White Sox fans who seem proud to be negative under the guise of keeping it real.

I will agree that White Sox fans can be a bit cynical and also can be a group of fatalists, however, I've never felt our fans disrespect the players. If you play hard here and play well, White Sox fans are extremely loyal. Heck, sometimes all you have to do is play hard and not be that good to get our loyalty. (i.e. Aaron Rowand)

[pythons007]

Originally Posted by Boondock Saint

I'm not saying this as a case for Buehrle's inclusion, but unless the voters alter their criterion for what constitutes a HoF career, there won't be any more HoF pitchers. The game has changed, and the way the voters view stats needs to change with it.

This. I'm not making a case for buehrle either but the way bullpens are used nowadays and how misleading the win is, voters really need to change what they consider HOF worthy. I think quality starts needs to be considered. When you think of how bullpens regularly blow leads in remarkable fashion and pitch counts determine innings pitched...different criteria needs to be considered for starting pitchers going forward.

[chicagowhitesox1]

He beat Boston 2-1 tonight. He's up to 157 innings for the year now.

[Zakath]

Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187

I agree, if he lasts long enough to win 250 games then MAYBE a discussion can be had (assuming he isn't following the Jamie Moyer route and plays 25 years).

That's the key number. He's still 67 wins from that, which, depending on where he's pitching (I don't think he stays in Toronto), could take 4-7 years. He could easily be 40 before he gets there.

[TDog]

Originally Posted by pythons007

This. I'm not making a case for buehrle either but the way bullpens are used nowadays and how misleading the win is, voters really need to change what they consider HOF worthy. I think quality starts needs to be considered. When you think of how bullpens regularly blow leads in remarkable fashion and pitch counts determine innings pitched...different criteria needs to be considered for starting pitchers going forward.

But the pitchers who belong in the Hall of Fame (with the exception of the elite of the elite closers and the occasional Hoyt Wilhelm) are the ones that are picking up wins because they go so deep into their games. They aren't the ones that are missing out on wins because they are pulled after six.

[SBSoxFan]

Buehrle won his 10th game today; that's 13 straight seasons with 10 or more wins. He needs to pitch 28 more innings to hit 200 IP for the 13th straight season.

[chicagowhitesox1]

I would think he would get at least 5 more starts so he should easily reach 200 innings. Baseball Reference hasn't updated Buehrles stats yet but he might pass Urban Shocker for career war and he will be right behind Hall of Famer Three Finger Brown.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

I would think he would get at least 5 more starts so he should easily reach 200 innings. Baseball Reference hasn't updated Buehrles stats yet but he might pass Urban Shocker for career war and he will be right behind Hall of Famer Three Finger Brown.

They update their stats everyday, Buehrle's not going to make up the 1/2 point of WAR he trails Urban Shocker by in 1 game, maybe by the end of the year, at best

[chicagowhitesox1]

Originally Posted by doublem23

They update their stats everyday, Buehrle's not going to make up the 1/2 point of WAR he trails Urban Shocker by in 1 game, maybe by the end of the year, at best

They usually update the stats around 3 am. Buehrle is at 54.5 and Shocker is at 54.8. After todays game and when they updat the stats, Buehrle should be tied or maybe pass Shocker.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

They usually update the stats around 3 am. Buehrle is at 54.5 and Shocker is at 54.8. After todays game and when they updat the stats, Buehrle should be tied or maybe pass Shocker.

I think that's still a pretty tall order for just 1 game, remember, it's taken him 26 starts to accumulate 2.0 WAR.

Definitely could see him passing Shocker by season's end if he starts anothe 5-6 games, but I would be surprised if they're even tied tomorrow.

[chicagowhitesox1]

Originally Posted by doublem23

I think that's still a pretty tall order for just 1 game, remember, it's taken him 26 starts to accumulate 2.0 WAR.

Definitely could see him passing Shocker by season's end if he starts anothe 5-6 games, but I would be surprised if they're even tied tomorrow.

I really have no idea how they calculate war but in his last start he pitched 6.2 innings and got.2 war and in todays game he went 8 innings and pitched a better game so i'm guesing he'll get at least .3 war.

[Chez]

Just to put Mark's HOF potential in perspective (and recognizing that his chances for the HOF will likely improve the longer he continues to pitch), using the metrics listed in Baseball Reference, at this point in his career, the likelihood of Buehrle make the HOF is lower than Magglio Ordonez's. He's going to have to continue to pitch effectively well beyond the length of his current contract.

[kittle42]

Originally Posted by Chez

Just to put Mark's HOF potential in perspective (and recognizing that his chances for the HOF will likely improve the longer he continues to pitch), using the metrics listed in Baseball Reference, at this point in his career, the likelihood of Buehrle make the HOF is lower than Magglio Ordonez's. He's going to have to continue to pitch effectively well beyond the length of his current contract.

Exactly. Those thinking he is worthy of the Hall are just drinking the Sox fan kool-aid, but that's OK. We're Sox fans.

[chicagowhitesox1]

He gained .4 war to pass Urban Shocker as 76th highest war for pitchers. Currently he's at 54.9. He has a very good shot of passing Red Ruffing, Kevin Appier, Tim Hudson and Three Finger Brown. I don't see how Magglio Ordonez is a better Hall of Famer than Buehrle either. Ordonez had a nice peak but he eneded up with a 38.0 war. There's not to many hitters in the Hall of Fame who ended up with a war under 40.0. Alot of the guys in the Hall of Fame with a war under 40.0 are Frankie Frisch crony picks too.

[kittle42]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

He gained .4 war to pass Urban Shocker as 76th highest war for pitchers. Currently he's at 54.9. He has a very good shot of passing Red Ruffing, Kevin Appier, Tim Hudson and Three Finger Brown. I don't see how Magglio Ordonez is a better Hall of Famer than Buehrle either. Ordonez had a nice peak but he eneded up with a 38.0 war. There's not to many hitters in the Hall of Fame who ended up with a war under 40.0. Alot of the guys in the Hall of Fame with a war under 40.0 are Frankie Frisch crony picks too.

This won't do it, unless he turns into Greg Maddux for his last 7 years or so:

Hall Of Fame Statistics

Player rank in (·)

Black InkPitching - 9 (271), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray InkPitching - 102 (211), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame MonitorPitching - 44 (309), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame StandardsPitching - 26 (195), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS Starting Pitcher (100th), 54.2 career WAR/35.8 7yr-peak WAR/45.0 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 57) = 72.6 career WAR/50.2 7yr-peak WAR/61.4 JAWS
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