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  #226  
Old 07-25-2013, 01:48 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is online now
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Originally Posted by PalehosePlanet View Post
How do you know what their potential is? There are many, MANY players who are not seen on top-prospect lists while they're in the 18-21 year old range.

Hell, I remember Magglio Ordonez finally pop up at #56 in BA's top 100 when he was 24 years old.

Wouldn't that have been exactly what my last statement was, that if you go by this belief you can to say everyone has front-line potential.

In terms of why I believe they don't, I enjoy following the minors and scouting reports, and while I like their arms, I personally think at this point they project more as power relievers than starters. They are still being stretched out and haven't had the body of work (or the physical maturation yet) to show if the stuff tool can be sharp in the 7th, 8th, 9th etc.
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  #227  
Old 07-25-2013, 02:06 PM
PalehosePlanet PalehosePlanet is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Wouldn't that have been exactly what my last statement was, that if you go by this belief you can to say everyone has front-line potential.

In terms of why I believe they don't, I enjoy following the minors and scouting reports, and while I like their arms, I personally think at this point they project more as power relievers than starters. They are still being stretched out and haven't had the body of work (or the physical maturation yet) to show if the stuff tool can be sharp in the 7th, 8th, 9th etc.
Well no, not everyone, because there are guys in that age group that are struggling and regressing and basically making it obvious that they won't make it. You wouldn't say they have front of the rotation potential. The young guys we're talking about are making good progress, coupled w/their stuff, thus the thought.

And thank you for a better explanation as to why you think they won't be starters, that's a lot better than "that's not their potential."
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  #228  
Old 07-25-2013, 02:19 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is online now
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Originally Posted by PalehosePlanet View Post
Well no, not everyone, because there are guys in that age group that are struggling and regressing and basically making it obvious that they won't make it. You wouldn't say they have front of the rotation potential. The young guys we're talking about are making good progress, coupled w/their stuff, thus the thought.

And thank you for a better explanation as to why you think they won't be starters, that's a lot better than "that's not their potential."
I mean, Jefferson's stats are really not good, he isn't projectable, he doesn't even K a batter per inning or have a 2:1 K:BB ratio, I don't believe his potential is anywhere close to a number 1 SP personally. I don't entirely know what the progress is, unless getting that ERA below 5 is a major milestone...
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  #229  
Old 07-25-2013, 03:07 PM
EMachine10 EMachine10 is offline
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I guess to me, to use the term "front-line potential" I need more than "damn that kid has a good arm". I want something atleast somewhat projectable. I would agree, they are 2 of the more intriguing prospects in our system, and maybe one day they could have that, but based purely on the stuff tool, it is just too soon.

The reason I say at that point you have to say everyone has the potential is, for example, as a very young prospect, who said Kyle McCollugh could not be another Mark Buehrle. Softer tosser, location specialist with movement, average at best stuff tool. But you can't project that all.
I agree that every player has potential, but potential as what? I was interpreting you as meaning that every pitcher had potential ace ceilings. I honestly thought of the Buehrle comparison you just made, but left it out. I loved Mark as a No. 1, but I think an "ace" and No. 1 guy are two different guys. To me, anyway.
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  #230  
Old 07-25-2013, 03:55 PM
PalehosePlanet PalehosePlanet is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
I mean, Jefferson's stats are really not good, he isn't projectable, he doesn't even K a batter per inning or have a 2:1 K:BB ratio, I don't believe his potential is anywhere close to a number 1 SP personally. I don't entirely know what the progress is, unless getting that ERA below 5 is a major milestone...
Look, I understand your point, but considering his ERA was pushing 8.5 in late May, it shows just how well he's pitched to bring it under 5. He's got 5 consecutive quality starts, so yes he's making progress. Keep in mind that often times the big kids -- he's 6'7" 260 -- take a while to figure it out mechanically. And if indeed that is what is happening w/this huge hard throwing 19 year old then his ceiling just went up.
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  #231  
Old 07-25-2013, 09:51 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Because that is not their potential? I mean, to say those 2 have front line, ace caliber potential, you might as well say that about every single player in the farm, because someone might become an ACE at some point.
You are right about it being "too soon", but again, I really like what I've seen of them in their short careers. We just disagree on their potential. I see both of these guys as having the ability to be #1, #2 starters. I of course know that it is much more likely that they will not pan out, but based on what I've seen of them both, the ability is there.

Please do not take my post as my guaranteeing that these guys will become front line starters, that was not my intent.
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  #232  
Old 07-26-2013, 11:41 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is online now
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You are right about it being "too soon", but again, I really like what I've seen of them in their short careers. We just disagree on their potential. I see both of these guys as having the ability to be #1, #2 starters. I of course know that it is much more likely that they will not pan out, but based on what I've seen of them both, the ability is there.

Please do not take my post as my guaranteeing that these guys will become front line starters, that was not my intent.
I just mistook the post, mostly my fault (what else is new right haha).

I do agree with you, those guys have what you would like to see to transform. I do like them more than their stats would indicate as well.

It would just be nice to have a farm that had a real, projectable front line SP in it.
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  #233  
Old 07-26-2013, 01:00 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
I just mistook the post, mostly my fault (what else is new right haha).

I do agree with you, those guys have what you would like to see to transform. I do like them more than their stats would indicate as well.

It would just be nice to have a farm that had a real, projectable front line SP in it.
How many teams have that, though?

I think our need for that is also diminished by the fact we already have a 24-year-old locked into a pretty team-friendly deal who already is one of the Top 5 pitchers in baseball.
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  #234  
Old 07-26-2013, 01:30 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
It would just be nice to have a farm that had a real, projectable front line SP in it.
Agreed. While I like Erik Johnson, I don't see much more than a #3 starter and I see Rienzo as a back of the rotation guy or reliever. I really don't like Snodgress, Petricka is a reliever and Beck baffles me.
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  #235  
Old 07-26-2013, 09:50 PM
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  #236  
Old 07-26-2013, 10:45 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Simien is just incredible right now. 4-4/1BB
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #237  
Old 07-26-2013, 10:46 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Agreed. While I like Erik Johnson, I don't see much more than a #3 starter and I see Rienzo as a back of the rotation guy or reliever. I really don't like Snodgress, Petricka is a reliever and Beck baffles me.
Have you actually seen Beck? Is he not striking anybody out because he can't get his fastball by anyone or is it lack of an out pitch?
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  #238  
Old 07-26-2013, 11:20 PM
JermaineDye05 JermaineDye05 is offline
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Simien is just incredible right now. 4-4/1BB
What's really incredible is he has more walks than strikeouts.
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  #239  
Old 07-26-2013, 11:49 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Have you actually seen Beck? Is he not striking anybody out because he can't get his fastball by anyone or is it lack of an out pitch?
Live? No. Seen plenty of video though. His secondary offerings are mediocre, so he has to live off his fastball (which is very good). But you can't live off one pitch and his control is still shaky at times (walk ratio is 3.1 per 9).
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  #240  
Old 07-27-2013, 10:50 AM
PalehosePlanet PalehosePlanet is offline
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What's really incredible is he has more walks than strikeouts.
Yeah, Semien is coming on strong. A .410 OBP and a .878 OPS now. Looks like he's taken a huge step forward and has been even better at AA than at A+ (20 doubles, 5 triples, 13 HR and 17 steals.)

I know he's been jumping around from SS, to 2B and has played some 3B. Does anyone know if he's definitely settling in at 2B, or is there still a chance he could be moved to 3B ?
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