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  #316  
Old 07-16-2013, 10:36 AM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Were these the same scouts that said Derrick Rose couldn't play and Michael Beasley was a stud? Do you have links to articles saying Viciedo and Flowers couldn't play? And since you ar so tuned into the scouts, why did you ignore what they said about Rondon when you gushed about him several months ago?
I agree. I don't remember there being a "consensus" on Viciedo much less one that pegged him as a career minor-leaguer.

However, I think your example is pretty inaccurate. I don't recall there being anyone that suggested Rose couldn't play and there were questions surrounding Beasley's character.
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  #317  
Old 07-16-2013, 10:38 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is online now
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Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
However, I think your example is pretty inaccurate. I don't recall there being anyone that suggested Rose couldn't play and there were questions surrounding Beasley's character.
There was one guy.
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  #318  
Old 07-16-2013, 10:58 AM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
He replaced Morel's defense with Keppinger and AJ's with Flowers. That alone was pretty bone-headed. Expecting them to make up for the offensive loss was part two of his baseball acumen.

Viciedo and Flowers aren't busts, they're never weres. The book on both was career minor leaguer before either got called up. Yeah, they had the power tool early. But neither had the skill to adjust. So, yeah, that's a pretty ****-poor job of evaluating players. Asserting otherwise is getting pretty tiring. It's obvious that the talent evaluators outside our organization were right to say these guys didn't belong on a ball field. It's time to accept that. It's not like there was debate. It was the world against our organization. Whether it's stubborness or a lack of ability to evaluate, it's pretty obvious that those players and our management all need to go for this to stop.
But you're also assuming that Hahn has the freedom and ability to properly do his job. We have no idea what, if any, input KW still has on baseball decisions. We have no idea what Hahn was told when he took over the job. From my perspective it appears he was told he didn't have much room to go out and sign players and I also have a feeling it was an organizational decision, and not Hahn's alone, to go with Flowers and Viciedo this year. The organization is a mess right now; to try and pin everything on a guy who has been GM for less than a year and where we don't actually know how much authority he has in his role is a bit ridiculous.
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  #319  
Old 07-16-2013, 11:17 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
I don't know- based on Keppinger's stats in 2010-2012- that seemed like a reasonable move to plug a position (3rd) where we had no one.

Viciedo in 2012 was a 23 yo LF- who gave better defense than expected with a plus arm- and hit .255-25-78- seemed like the next step for him was to start drawing some walks, raise the average a bit- not unusual for a 23 yo.

Flowers over AJ- not a good move- I think they lost the one guy in the clubhouse that would not have tolerated the dumbass way they've played baseball this year. I've heard AJ was so disliked in the clubhouse that that was part of the decision- but of all the moves- that was the one I'd question.

I'm willing to give Hahn this trading deadline and this offseason to prove himself.

I'd feel better if KW wasn't still lurking around- he needs to go- completely.
Can't really rip those offseason moves by Hahn when it was obvious that we had limited payroll to work with and no third baseman, plus A.J. (as much as I love the guy) realistically only has a few seasons left, so he picked a much-needed top of the order contact hitter over an aging catcher.

I still think Keppinger is a good player, but he broke his leg in the offseason, and it takes time to come back from that. People were expecting .320 off the bat from him. He hit .317 in June, and is hitting .280 the last 7 days. He is who he is, a patient contact hitter who only hits for average, so I don't get why some people expect Tampa Carl Crawford numbers from him.

IMO, the bad move wasn't to give Flowers and Viciedo a shot at extended big league time to see what they can do, the bad move was not to have experienced players backing them up, and instilling some accountability.

The idea of handing them full-time jobs with a AA catcher and Wise as the players pushing them for playing time was the poor one. Had Hahn acquired better bench players, then a slump means some bench time, other than letting them play every day regardless of the results.
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  #320  
Old 07-16-2013, 01:29 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
IMO, the bad move wasn't to give Flowers and Viciedo a shot at extended big league time to see what they can do, the bad move was not to have experienced players backing them up, and instilling some accountability.

The idea of handing them full-time jobs with a AA catcher and Wise as the players pushing them for playing time was the poor one. Had Hahn acquired better bench players, then a slump means some bench time, other than letting them play every day regardless of the results.
I think you're right on the money.
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  #321  
Old 07-16-2013, 02:07 PM
soxtalker soxtalker is offline
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I think that they handled Flowers about as well as they could. IIRC, Flowers had suspect hitting the past couple of years, but he was getting great reviews from the pitchers, and his defense was quite good. The drop-off in his defense fits in with an overall theme on this team. Not sure why.

This is a tough year, but I guess that I'd prefer that they be near the bottom and clearly in a sell-off mode than in the middle of the pack. This always felt to me like a transition year or two, and it might as well happen while the red line reconstruction places an additional constraint on attending the games. But it isn't going to be much fun in August and September.
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  #322  
Old 07-16-2013, 02:29 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Not necessarily so. Rebuilding and dismantling is very risky, it's taken the Pirates 20 years to finally assemble a winner. I would also submit that given our inability to acquire young talent in recent years, we might be worse off.
I pretty much agree with your point. But, IMO, don't think it's accurate to compare the White Sox to the Pirates' (or Royals') perpetual rebuilding efforts. Those other teams are limited (whether by choice or not) to low payrolls, which the White Sox (while not spending like Detroit or Boston) are not.
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  #323  
Old 07-16-2013, 04:51 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
There was one guy.
I believe that was munchman33 you're referring to. That guy was an epic bust.

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Originally Posted by kobo View Post
But you're also assuming that Hahn has the freedom and ability to properly do his job. We have no idea what, if any, input KW still has on baseball decisions. We have no idea what Hahn was told when he took over the job. From my perspective it appears he was told he didn't have much room to go out and sign players and I also have a feeling it was an organizational decision, and not Hahn's alone, to go with Flowers and Viciedo this year. The organization is a mess right now; to try and pin everything on a guy who has been GM for less than a year and where we don't actually know how much authority he has in his role is a bit ridiculous.
You're right, I am assuming that. And perhaps the GM role isn't what it is in other organizations. But if that's the case, it doesn't matter whether I'm referring to Hahn or KW or Jerry Reinsdorf's horse, management needs to go for this to change. If Hahn wasn't calling the shots before, he isn't going to at any point.
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  #324  
Old 07-16-2013, 05:07 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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If we wanted a total rebuild, we'd be dealing Sale, Reed, Quintana and Santiago to pull prospects in here. We're not.
That said, I hope that our main idea behind dealing Peavy, Rios, Alexei, maybe Danks isn't just to clear salary to bring in another group of free agents. We need to have some young players out of our farm in this lineup in 2 years.
As for who's running the operation, I assume Hahn has full control, but he may not. Heck, I suspect that Ventura is Cooper's beard in some respects re managing this team as well. Cooper, by all accounts a good coach, is also Kenny's man. That's going to make getting rid of Ventura and bringing in a real professional staff further challenging.
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  #325  
Old 07-16-2013, 05:39 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Hopefully our rebuild goes as good as Boston did in one year. They had a horrible year last year finishing 25+ games back. They redid a good portion of their everyday lineup but added 2nd tier players:

They built around Ortiz-Pedroia-Saltalamacchia-Ellsbury. They added Shane Victorino, Mike Carp and Jonny Gomes in corner outfield/IB/DH roles.

they added Mike Napoli at 1st and Steven Drew at SS

They have gotten little out of Drew and Gomes but the others have produced. They have had a big year from the rookie Iglesias filling in for Middlebrooks and Drew who both have been hurt and contributed very little

Their pitching is better this year but they don't have a lot more talented staff than the White Sox do.
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  #326  
Old 07-16-2013, 06:39 PM
palehozenychicty palehozenychicty is offline
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Originally Posted by SCCWS View Post
Hopefully our rebuild goes as good as Boston did in one year. They had a horrible year last year finishing 25+ games back. They redid a good portion of their everyday lineup but added 2nd tier players:

They built around Ortiz-Pedroia-Saltalamacchia-Ellsbury. They added Shane Victorino, Mike Carp and Jonny Gomes in corner outfield/IB/DH roles.

they added Mike Napoli at 1st and Steven Drew at SS

They have gotten little out of Drew and Gomes but the others have produced. They have had a big year from the rookie Iglesias filling in for Middlebrooks and Drew who both have been hurt and contributed very little

Their pitching is better this year but they don't have a lot more talented staff than the White Sox do.

The problem is that all of those guys sans Saltalamacchia are better, more consistent hitters than anyone on this team.

Sale, Quintana, and Reed are nice pieces to start. Rios, while solid, isn't a cornerstone player.

The diamond is where talent is seriously lacking. The hump is actually in good hands.
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  #327  
Old 07-16-2013, 06:43 PM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Not necessarily so. Rebuilding and dismantling is very risky, it's taken the Pirates 20 years to finally assemble a winner. I would also submit that given our inability to acquire young talent in recent years, we might be worse off.
20 years?! There's another guy in this very same thread who thinks talk of the Sox taking 5 years to rebuild is "garbage":
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/v...87#post3064087

Careful, he might accuse you of feeding off of negativity.
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  #328  
Old 07-16-2013, 07:30 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by SCCWS View Post
Hopefully our rebuild goes as good as Boston did in one year. They had a horrible year last year finishing 25+ games back. They redid a good portion of their everyday lineup but added 2nd tier players:

They built around Ortiz-Pedroia-Saltalamacchia-Ellsbury.
Hey, if we had 4 players of that quality, we could have this fixed next year. We have 6 of the players of the quality of the 2nd tier they added and none of the core they built around.
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  #329  
Old 07-16-2013, 09:35 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Hey, if we had 4 players of that quality, we could have this fixed next year. We have 6 of the players of the quality of the 2nd tier they added and none of the core they built around.
I agree. But we have a pitching staff. They had one reliable starting pitcher in their rotation---Buccholtz. Lester came off a terrible year, Lackey off Tommy John, they acquired Dempster and Doubront was a .500 pitcher. Added to that they acquired a closer in the offseason and he went down for the season. They are surviving on a AAA closer they promoted.

I am not saying it will take a year. Boston did it that fast-----so far. I think it will take us 3-4. But making good ( or lucky) FA signings and getting the Farm System in better shape are key elements to turning this around.
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  #330  
Old 07-16-2013, 11:30 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
20 years?! There's another guy in this very same thread who thinks talk of the Sox taking 5 years to rebuild is "garbage":
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/v...87#post3064087

Careful, he might accuse you of feeding off of negativity.
LOL! That guy is a complete buffoon!
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