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  #121  
Old 06-23-2013, 09:15 AM
SoxSpeed22 SoxSpeed22 is offline
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Pitchers with "good" mechanics get hurt all the time. Danks was not an injury risk and then his shoulder went out last year. It's really just a crapshoot with pitchers.
Back to the actual topic, I am also on the side of only trade Sale for the right deal, don't be too stubborn one way or the other. Sometimes it's better to trade a $100 bill for a $50, two $20's and a $10.
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  #122  
Old 06-23-2013, 09:31 AM
DonnieDarko DonnieDarko is offline
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Originally Posted by SoxSpeed22 View Post
Pitchers with "good" mechanics get hurt all the time. Danks was not an injury risk and then his shoulder went out last year. It's really just a crapshoot with pitchers.
Back to the actual topic, I am also on the side of only trade Sale for the right deal, don't be too stubborn one way or the other. Sometimes it's better to trade a $100 bill for a $50, two $20's and a $10.
I disagree. While yes, this team isn't going to compete for anything for awhile, when it DOES start to compete, having a guy like Sale anchor the rotation is what we need.
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  #123  
Old 06-23-2013, 10:42 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
If you think that's what people are arguing, you're off your rocker
I never said "Sale will get injured". But to act like, on a team that isn't winning in the next half decade, trading a player with the very strong injury concern Sale has doesn't make sense because somehow he's not likely to get injured is pretty damn preposterous. He is likely to get injured. Probably more likely than anyone else. Once again, I did not say he will get injured. But not planning on what's most likely, and instead arguing from an all or nothing position of "he will or will not get injured and you say he will!", when this team is going nowhere in the time he's here? Come on. It doesn't matter if Sale gets hurt or not. It only matters whether we get something out of him in the next five years. His value will never be higher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
That's funny. I'm a resident old school old fart and have taken my share of whup for not bowing at the altar of everything saber. A very prominent and learned poster here keeps telling us that Sale's pitching arm is destined to go lame. I mean it's predetermined science. All I've been trying to do is show that is not necessarily the case. I have a limited amount of time and happened to pull up the article I linked. Not a big fan of BR, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to summarily dismiss everything they write. Just like I'm not going to assume that Sale is destined to be a left handed Mark Prior. Sometimes you just can't ****ing win around here.
Bleacher has some decent articles and authors. This is not one of them. The author is an internet blogger who, surprise, only writes fluff about his favorite team.

Any article comparing Sale to Randy Johnson doesn't deserve your time. Randy Johnson does not have the same body frame as Chris Sale. Johnson added more than 40 pounds of upper body muscle to his frame. If Chris Sale stood next to Randy Johnson, he would look like a tiny child.
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  #124  
Old 06-23-2013, 10:47 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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We're dead last in the AL in team OPS and we're 13th in fielding- we desperately need to upgrade our talent with position players who can hit and can field- and other than Josh Phegley- there is no help in AA or AAA coming through the system.

We especially need a CF (replace De Aza, no help in farm system), a 1st baseman (this has to be PK's last year), a 3rd baseman (Gillaspie looks ok, but doesn't look like anything more than average).

I don't think Sale should be viewed as "untouchable"- the one possible strength of the Sox org is starting pitching (Sale, Quintana, Santiago, Eric Johnson (just promoted to AAA)- in our situation you have to trade from your strength- thanks to 10 years of KW overseeing one of the worst farm systems in MLB- we may have to move Sale as part of restocking the talent.
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  #125  
Old 06-23-2013, 10:54 AM
Tragg Tragg is online now
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In my opinion, the Sox have 3 high end young starters: Sale, Santiago (whom I fear the Sox undervalue) and Quintana. They also have 2 young relievers, JOnes and Reed. That may be enough to build around and to prevent the need for total overhaul.
Can the combination of Rios, Peavy, Crane, Thornton yield 2 good position players ready in 2 seasons?
If so, we could then sign a right handed starter, plug catcher and maybe even SS with defensive specialists and be back in the game fairly quickly.

The AStros, the latest demolish and rebuild club, had more tradeable talent than we do (Oswalt, Berkman, Rodriguez, Pence, Myers, and a few other pieces), but they didn't have the young pitching on their club like we do. We aren't nearly in as bad a position as they were.
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  #126  
Old 06-23-2013, 11:01 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by JoeYoung View Post
There's no better way to back up your point, then linking to an article from Bleacher Report, apparently.
Am I forgiven now?

http://first-thoughts.org/on/Randy+Johnson/Chris+Sale/

http://www.beachwoodreporter.com/spo...ill_a_myst.php

http://baseballnewshound.com/?p=161

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...s_mlb&c_id=mlb

Last edited by SI1020; 06-23-2013 at 11:07 AM.
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  #127  
Old 06-23-2013, 11:17 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Only one of those articles is a scouting report (the rest are fluff). But, once again, this ignores two very important things:

1. Johnson was injury prone and had to totally redesign his body in way that is really insane.

2. Chris Sale's body is tiny. He's way tinier than Randy Johnson was. Heck, he's tinier than the shorter (and frail himself) Pedro Martinez was.
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  #128  
Old 06-23-2013, 11:20 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
In my opinion, the Sox have 3 high end young starters: Sale, Santiago (whom I fear the Sox undervalue) and Quintana. They also have 2 young relievers, JOnes and Reed. That may be enough to build around and to prevent the need for total overhaul.
Can the combination of Rios, Peavy, Crane, Thornton yield 2 good position players ready in 2 seasons?
If so, we could then sign a right handed starter, plug catcher and maybe even SS with defensive specialists and be back in the game fairly quickly.

The AStros, the latest demolish and rebuild club, had more tradeable talent than we do (Oswalt, Berkman, Rodriguez, Pence, Myers, and a few other pieces), but they didn't have the young pitching on their club like we do. We aren't nearly in as bad a position as they were.
You don't replace 9 position players effectively in a year or two. Not if you're doing your due diligence and getting good players.
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  #129  
Old 06-23-2013, 12:01 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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The Sox have (1) basically nobody but Sale who projects to be among the best at his position for a long time; (2) very little projectable talent in the minors; (3) lots of bad contracts that prevent them from adding veterans; (4) questionable talent evaluators at all levels; (5) a fickle fan base.

I think the Sox need to start from scratch. Expansion teams can be built in five years, that's the looming challenge.

Talent evaluators are a lot cheaper than talent. Sox should clean house in the scouting department, starting immediately. Then they should build a top-of-the-line scouting and development organization, whatever it costs. It would help to move some of the minor league teams closer to Chicago so fans can get excited about prospects sooner.

Then they need to get the talent evaluators something to work with. They are not going to be far from the worst team in baseball over the next several years; they must accept it and start stockpiling high draft picks by losing.

Meanwhile, the bad contracts will take care of themselves. As opportunities present themselves to unload veterans, the Sox should do so. They can free up cash (needed to pay for scouting and development) and make themselves even worse on the field in the short term. Any real prospects they pick up are a bonus.

The few players with trade value, like Sale, need to be evaluated for how good they will be in five years and not how good they are now. Pitchers are risky long-term investments; pitchers with stressful deliveries are even riskier long-term investments. Sale needs to be converted into at least three players with best-at-their-position ceilings who are still several years from those ceilings.

The fan base will not be happy with a last-place team, but guess what? The team's already in last place. The die-hards will appreciate the five-year plan and will still support the Sox. The bad contracts at least have recognizable names to pacify the few casual fans who might still come to the park. The Sox should replace them with less-expensive veterans who are more popular with the fans; they've historically done that a lot anyway. If they brought in, say, Buehrle then he would also eat innings and be a good mentor to younger players.

This is the plan I thought Ventura was hired for, but the team got even more of a bounce out of firing Ozzie than I expected, so it's a year behind schedule.
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  #130  
Old 06-23-2013, 12:10 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
The Sox have (1) basically nobody but Sale who projects to be among the best at his position for a long time; (2) very little projectable talent in the minors; (3) lots of bad contracts that prevent them from adding veterans; (4) questionable talent evaluators at all levels; (5) a fickle fan base.

I think the Sox need to start from scratch. Expansion teams can be built in five years, that's the looming challenge.

Talent evaluators are a lot cheaper than talent. Sox should clean house in the scouting department, starting immediately. Then they should build a top-of-the-line scouting and development organization, whatever it costs. It would help to move some of the minor league teams closer to Chicago so fans can get excited about prospects sooner.

Then they need to get the talent evaluators something to work with. They are not going to be far from the worst team in baseball over the next several years; they must accept it and start stockpiling high draft picks by losing.

Meanwhile, the bad contracts will take care of themselves. As opportunities present themselves to unload veterans, the Sox should do so. They can free up cash (needed to pay for scouting and development) and make themselves even worse on the field in the short term. Any real prospects they pick up are a bonus.

The few players with trade value, like Sale, need to be evaluated for how good they will be in five years and not how good they are now. Pitchers are risky long-term investments; pitchers with stressful deliveries are even riskier long-term investments. Sale needs to be converted into at least three players with best-at-their-position ceilings who are still several years from those ceilings.

The fan base will not be happy with a last-place team, but guess what? The team's already in last place. The die-hards will appreciate the five-year plan and will still support the Sox. The bad contracts at least have recognizable names to pacify the few casual fans who might still come to the park. The Sox should replace them with less-expensive veterans who are more popular with the fans; they've historically done that a lot anyway. If they brought in, say, Buehrle then he would also eat innings and be a good mentor to younger players.

This is the plan I thought Ventura was hired for, but the team got even more of a bounce out of firing Ozzie than I expected, so it's a year behind schedule.
This is pretty spot on, and my sentiments exactly. Especially on the scouting department.
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  #131  
Old 06-23-2013, 12:47 PM
Tragg Tragg is online now
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
You don't replace 9 position players effectively in a year or two. Not if you're doing your due diligence and getting good players.
They don't have to replace 9. Probably 5 (c, 1B, 3B, DH, RF). We replaced 4 to start 2005 and 5 for most of 2005. WE also replaced closer (twice) and set-up man. I know there was a once-in-a-generation synergy involved in 2005's championship team, but when you have some pitching foundation, it's a lot, lot, lot easier to retool. And the team did win 90 games the following year.
I think people undervalue Santiago and Quintana.
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  #132  
Old 06-23-2013, 01:02 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
They don't have to replace 9. Probably 5 (c, 1B, 3B, DH, RF). We replaced 4 to start 2005 and 5 for most of 2005. WE also replaced closer (twice) and set-up man. I know there was a once-in-a-generation synergy involved in 2005's championship team, but when you have some pitching foundation, it's a lot, lot, lot easier to retool. And the team did win 90 games the following year.
I think people undervalue Santiago and Quintana.
I'm with you. The pitching is fine. Don't fix what isn't broken. And not all position players need to be replaced, either.

We can be competitive in 2015 while simultaneously drafting and developing better.
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  #133  
Old 06-23-2013, 01:09 PM
Tragg Tragg is online now
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
I'm with you. The pitching is fine. Don't fix what isn't broken. And not all position players need to be replaced, either.

We can be competitive in 2015 while simultaneously drafting and developing better.

Anyway, what I would do (my today's thinking):
This year and off-season.
Keep Alexei unless someone offers us a really good prospect
Acquire high ceiling prospects, even if in the lower-minors, from trading Peavy, Rios, Crain and Thornton. Don't worry about ML-ready. Do everything people have suggested to improve our player development, scouting, etc.
Sign a RHP, a RF, one reliever and defensive catcher and defensive SS if we need one. That should be accomplished for $20 million.
Sign PK to a 1 year deal.
That should stabilize us for 2014; after that, a couple of prospects should be rolling up and we can sign another couple of FA.
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  #134  
Old 06-23-2013, 03:30 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
We're dead last in the AL in team OPS and we're 13th in fielding- we desperately need to upgrade our talent with position players who can hit and can field- and other than Josh Phegley- there is no help in AA or AAA coming through the system.

We especially need a CF (replace De Aza, no help in farm system), a 1st baseman (this has to be PK's last year), a 3rd baseman (Gillaspie looks ok, but doesn't look like anything more than average).

I don't think Sale should be viewed as "untouchable"- the one possible strength of the Sox org is starting pitching (Sale, Quintana, Santiago, Eric Johnson (just promoted to AAA)- in our situation you have to trade from your strength- thanks to 10 years of KW overseeing one of the worst farm systems in MLB- we may have to move Sale as part of restocking the talent.
Thompson is quietly having a very good year.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #135  
Old 06-23-2013, 04:27 PM
SoxSpeed22 SoxSpeed22 is offline
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I think Trayce can be our center fielder in the future, but I would like to see him keep this up in AA for this year and then spend next year in Charlotte. He is (probably) the best defensive outfielder in the organization, he's got power too. His main improvement this season was in shortening his swing, and I would like to see him keep that up.
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