White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
Get well soon, Chris...

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-20-2013, 07:39 PM
Dan H Dan H is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Highland
Posts: 1,943
Default Rebuilding the White Sox

I think it is fairly obvious that a majority of White Sox fans think that the 2013 season has been and will continue to be a disaster. Most call for a massive rebuild and I cannot argue with that.

However, I believe the White Sox need much more than that. A few years ago Rocky Wirtz saw that his team was a failure on the ice and at the gate. He began to make to serious changes, and the results have been amazing. The Hawks won a Cup that alluded them for almost 50 years. The United Center is rocking again. And even if the Hawks cannot beat the Bruins, they have accomplished a great deal in a short period of time. How did this happen? Business as usual went out the window. The Hawks have a chance to become a true, elite NHL team.

The White Sox need someone outside the organization to come in and analyze what has gone wrong. They are on the verge on their first last place finish in 24 years, and merely trusting Rick Hahn alone to turn things around doesn't make sense to me.

This organization has been on a treadmill. It is time for serious change - not only changing players.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-20-2013, 07:42 PM
LITTLE NELL's Avatar
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sebring Florida
Posts: 7,602
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan H View Post
I think it is fairly obvious that a majority of White Sox fans think that the 2013 season has been and will continue to be a disaster. Most call for a massive rebuild and I cannot argue with that.

However, I believe the White Sox need much more than that. A few years ago Rocky Wirtz saw that his team was a failure on the ice and at the gate. He began to make to serious changes, and the results have been amazing. The Hawks won a Cup that alluded them for almost 50 years. The United Center is rocking again. And even if the Hawks cannot beat the Bruins, they have accomplished a great deal in a short period of time. How did this happen? Business as usual went out the window. The Hawks have a chance to become a true, elite NHL team.

The White Sox need someone outside the organization to come in and analyze what has gone wrong. They are on the verge on their first last place finish in 24 years, and merely trusting Rick Hahn alone to turn things around doesn't make sense to me.

This organization has been on a treadmill. It is time for serious change - not only changing players.
Could not agree more.
__________________
Coming up to bat for our White Sox is the Mighty Mite, Nelson Fox.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-20-2013, 08:10 PM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Oswego, Illinois
Posts: 691
Default

When the season started I thought the team might contend like they did in 2012. Up until 3 weeks ago the pitching staff held things together. The hitting and defense weren't any good. Now the entire team (pitching, hitting and defense) has collapsed. If there's any light at the end of the tunnel, I sure don't see it. It will be curious to see what Hahn does. I should point out also that everybody I have talked to tells me JR has no intention of selling the White Sox now.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-20-2013, 09:00 PM
doublem23's Avatar
doublem23 doublem23 is offline
MMXXIII
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Roscoe Village
Posts: 53,077
Blog Entries: 5
Default

For ****'s sake, they just need to get some better players
__________________
2014 Obligatory Attendance & Record Tracker

0-2

LAST GAME: April 16 - Boston 6, Sox 4 (14)
NEXT GAME: April 26 vs. Tampa Bay
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-20-2013, 09:09 PM
LITTLE NELL's Avatar
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sebring Florida
Posts: 7,602
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
For ****'s sake, they just need to get some better players
Great idea, what a bunch of dummies we are around here not to think of that.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-20-2013, 09:39 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Evanston
Posts: 28,222
Default

The Blackhawks analogy does not really work. They did not bring in someone from outside the organization to understand why things were going wrong and correct their ways. They built their team like a few others have, stink for years and get top picks. Setting aside the line about ownership, which will lead to disagreements about credit here, the team stunk for years and got back to back #1 overall picks. They drafted Kane and Toews and successfully built talent around them. While baseball is not as dependent on top picks as is any other sport, the Sox have not sucked for years to continuously get the top pick of talent at the top of the draft. My guess right now is that they'll be picking somewhere around #5 in the 2014 draft. Here's to hoping they can get someone a lot better than Gordon Beckham, and to getting much needed top talent in the organization as a whole.
__________________
Attendance records:
09 : 3-2.
10 : 2-3.
11: 0-1.
12: 2-1; Orlando Hudson and Alex Rios walkoffs.
14: 1-0; Opening Day 5-3 win vs Twins.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-20-2013, 09:46 PM
Dan H Dan H is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Highland
Posts: 1,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
The Blackhawks analogy does not really work. They did not bring in someone from outside the organization to understand why things were going wrong and correct their ways. They built their team like a few others have, stink for years and get top picks. Setting aside the line about ownership, which will lead to disagreements about credit here, the team stunk for years and got back to back #1 overall picks. They drafted Kane and Toews and successfully built talent around them. While baseball is not as dependent on top picks as is any other sport, the Sox have not sucked for years to continuously get the top pick of talent at the top of the draft. My guess right now is that they'll be picking somewhere around #5 in the 2014 draft. Here's to hoping they can get someone a lot better than Gordon Beckham, and to getting much needed top talent in the organization as a whole.
I think the analogy does work. The point is this: First you have to admit something is wrong before you fix it. I do not think it is a coincidence that things turned around after Rocky Wirtz took over. It was a whole new mind set - and look at the results.

My point is this - The Sox have been on the same pattern. Build up the team, have some success, then watch everything fall apart. There has to be a reason this keeps happening. And it needs to stop.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-20-2013, 09:56 PM
Railsplitter Railsplitter is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Streamwood, IL
Posts: 6,139
Default

I'd like to see a coaching staff that isn't made up of former Sox players who were seemingly hired because they were fan favorites. Let's get guys who have a record of working with players.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-20-2013, 10:00 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Evanston
Posts: 28,222
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan H View Post
I think the analogy does work. The point is this: First you have to admit something is wrong before you fix it. I do not think it is a coincidence that things turned around after Rocky Wirtz took over. It was a whole new mind set - and look at the results.

My point is this - The Sox have been on the same pattern. Build up the team, have some success, then watch everything fall apart. There has to be a reason this keeps happening. And it needs to stop.
That's not what happened, though. Dale Tallon was GM under the old man starting in 2005, Rocky took over the team from his father two years later. Tallon drafted Toews in 2006 and Kane in 2007, and Tallon was the architect for the 2010 championship team. Rocky and John McDonough changed team perception involving PR and marketing. The management responsible for the title was in place before Rocky took over.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-20-2013, 10:05 PM
jamokes jamokes is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Mokena,IL
Posts: 571
Default

The Sox can't draft Kane and Toews..........it's not the same. Yes we have to rebuild and sell off what we can,but then we have NOTHING in the minors to restock with. We are in trouble for a few years to come. Dunn is done, Paulie is gotten old quickly and our leadoff hitter is one of the leaders in strikeouts. Long year.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-20-2013, 10:05 PM
Mr. Jinx Mr. Jinx is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 788
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan H View Post
I think it is fairly obvious that a majority of White Sox fans think that the 2013 season has been and will continue to be a disaster. Most call for a massive rebuild and I cannot argue with that.

However, I believe the White Sox need much more than that. A few years ago Rocky Wirtz saw that his team was a failure on the ice and at the gate. He began to make to serious changes, and the results have been amazing. The Hawks won a Cup that alluded them for almost 50 years. The United Center is rocking again. And even if the Hawks cannot beat the Bruins, they have accomplished a great deal in a short period of time. How did this happen? Business as usual went out the window. The Hawks have a chance to become a true, elite NHL team.

The White Sox need someone outside the organization to come in and analyze what has gone wrong. They are on the verge on their first last place finish in 24 years, and merely trusting Rick Hahn alone to turn things around doesn't make sense to me.

This organization has been on a treadmill. It is time for serious change - not only changing players.
So what you're saying is we need to be ****ty for a long time, hope the owner dies, and become trendy. Got it.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-20-2013, 10:06 PM
captain54 captain54 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Evergreen Park
Posts: 1,172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
The Blackhawks analogy does not really work. They did not bring in someone from outside the organization to understand why things were going wrong and correct their ways. They built their team like a few others have, stink for years and get top picks.
That is true.. some of the pieces were already in place when Bill Wirtz was still around... The one thing that Rocky did do was bring in Hossa, which would probably have never happened under Bill Wirtz..

What Rocky did was give the franchise a fresh coat of paint.. bringing back Hull and Mikita brought a lot of old baby boomers back that couldn't stand Bill Wirtz..

Reinsdorf has suffered from a bad rep with the fans since he tried to move the team back in the late 80's..a lot of that is not an issue with the newer generation of fans, but it's really unfortunate that the Sox could not capitalize on the buzz from the 05 WS...
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-20-2013, 10:12 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Evanston
Posts: 28,222
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
That is true.. some of the pieces were already in place when Bill Wirtz was still around... The one thing that Rocky did do was bring in Hossa, which would probably have never happened under Bill Wirtz..

What Rocky did was give the franchise a fresh coat of paint.. bringing back Hull and Mikita brought a lot of old baby boomers back that couldn't stand Bill Wirtz..

Reinsdorf has suffered from a bad rep with the fans since he tried to move the team back in the late 80's..a lot of that is not an issue with the newer generation of fans, but it's really unfortunate that the Sox could not capitalize on the buzz from the 05 WS...
No one really cares now about what happened in the 80s. And as for bringing back players, in the case of the White Sox they have never left. There's too much loyalty and respect there.

Looking back on it, the decline of the team should not be too much of a shock, as KW's M.O. seemed to be to try and re-load with veterans every year, instead of relying on a younger and rising core. That is only sustainable for so long, and the lack of young talent in the organization began to rear it's ugly head over time, and here we are today.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-20-2013, 10:12 PM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 15,781
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan H View Post
I think it is fairly obvious that a majority of White Sox fans think that the 2013 season has been and will continue to be a disaster. Most call for a massive rebuild and I cannot argue with that.

However, I believe the White Sox need much more than that. A few years ago Rocky Wirtz saw that his team was a failure on the ice and at the gate. He began to make to serious changes, and the results have been amazing. The Hawks won a Cup that alluded them for almost 50 years. The United Center is rocking again. And even if the Hawks cannot beat the Bruins, they have accomplished a great deal in a short period of time. How did this happen? Business as usual went out the window. The Hawks have a chance to become a true, elite NHL team.

The White Sox need someone outside the organization to come in and analyze what has gone wrong. They are on the verge on their first last place finish in 24 years, and merely trusting Rick Hahn alone to turn things around doesn't make sense to me.

This organization has been on a treadmill. It is time for serious change - not only changing players.
Of course, during the 1970 season, on the verge of their worst finish in franchise history, the White Sox hired a new GM and field manager from the Angels system, which really only worked because the manager was friendly with the enigmatic Dick Allen, whose curious career included one full season with the Sox that happened to be the greatest offensive year in franchise history. Compared with this year, the Sox were much worse off in 1970. They were worse off in 1977, although no one understood that at the time.

Maybe baseball should shorten the season by locking out the players for months only a few years after a work stoppage that leaves the sport with a salary cap. Not that the baseball teams that have money are automatically doing well. There really is nothing magical about going outside the organization. Most teams aren't getting it right. The Angels and Dodgers have spent all kinds of money, have had baseball analysts insist their the teams to beat, and they aren't much better off than the Sox. I really don't know that the other non-Michigan AL Central teams are really better off the Sox.

The Sox remind me of the Giants of about five years ago, no hitting but pretty good pitching, a team with some age and bad contracts. The promising young players that got a lot of playing time never panned out. The Giants had the advantage of playing in a park that helped their pitchers, and were able to draft Buster Posey, but when you have strong pitching, you aren't that far away, especially these days.

What the Sox need most is a good catcher to play good defense and handle the pitching staff. Unless I'm missing something, Flowers proved a fatal miscalculation, but Pierzynski wasn't going to be a longterm answer. I always thought signing Dunn was a mistake. If Guillen had used Quentin as his DH instead of Kotsay, he likely would have protected Quentin from injury while getting more production and keeping the team from making the offensively fatal mistake of committing big money to a low-average, high strikeout hitter who brought the offense down with him.

The best thing, I think, that could happen to the Sox this season would be a team claiming Dunn on waivers the way the Sox claimed Rios. I'm hoping that's not the longshot it seems because it would make improving the team so much easier. The Sox have some strong pitching, even if this roadtrip didn't display it. Filling in offensive holes is easier than finding pitching. The offense needs to severely cut down on the strikeouts and do a better job of making line-drive contact.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-20-2013, 10:19 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Evanston
Posts: 28,222
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
The best thing, I think, that could happen to the Sox this season would be a team claiming Dunn on waivers the way the Sox claimed Rios. I'm hoping that's not the longshot it seems because it would make improving the team so much easier. The Sox have some strong pitching, even if this roadtrip didn't display it. Filling in offensive holes is easier than finding pitching. The offense needs to severely cut down on the strikeouts and do a better job of making line-drive contact.
This is I agree with and might be the only reason I'm optimistic about this team, along with future payroll flexibility. I would like to see them deal a couple older players this year for younger position players who can at least hit at a league-average level and play good D (not superstars, just slightly better versions of Conor Gillespie). I am confident in the organization's ability to find and/or develop pitching, as that seems their sole strength.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:28 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.